Hosta

Descriptive IP Welcomes

Hello all, I'd like to copy the 'problem user welcome templates' in twinkle and make versions that can be used for IP users as they're quite limited.

Does anyone have any ideas or want to help on them?

I'd start by copying the user ones to my sandbox then add the needed information about creating accounts etc.

Pinging @Amorymeltzer: so you can advise on adding them to Twinkle. Thanks, RhinosF1^(chat)_{(status)(contribs)} 18:30, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

• RhinosF1, funny you mention that because I literally just created one last night for this exact reason. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:24, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

  MJL, I'm happy for anyone to but at some point (tommorow), I'll create a list of welcome templates for users that we have and compare it to IP ones. If you want to start the use User:RhinosF1/Welcome/list to create it. RhinosF1^(chat)_{(status)(contribs)} 20:27, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

• I've started a project page at User:RhinosF1/Welcome RhinosF1^(chat)_{(status)(contribs)} 20:33, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

  Added to page. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 21:26, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

  MJL - I've changed to a Templateable so we can track templates easier that need to be done. RhinosF1^(chat)_{(status)(contribs)} 21:34, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

• I'm sure that any such welcome message, whether to a registered or unregistered editor, would be much more likely to have its desired effect if it was actually written by a human being addressing the particular concerns about the edit in question rather than done by template. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:02, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

  There's some truth there but a template also contains carefully crafted prose which convey a message better than I have the time or skill to do every time I use it. Often I expand the template then customise its output to get the best of both worlds. Could we do anything to make that process easier and more attractive? Certes (talk) 21:19, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

  WP:TW allows use to add custom messages at the end Certes. RhinosF1^(chat)_{(status)(contribs)} 21:23, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

I've now looked through the templates, I'd appreciate if anyone offered to help out with them. There's 2 Registered user ones missing and 8 IP ones to create and there's also 8 templates that exisit but are not in twinkle per my list RhinosF1^(chat)_{(status)(contribs)} 16:40, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Hello, When creating User:RhinosF1/Welcome/list for the above thread, I noticed an inconsistency in naming formats for the registered user welcome templates. Which format is preferred? How should they be capitalised? - answer poll using both letter and number RhinosF1^(chat)_{(status)(contribs)} 17:04, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

• A) all one word no spaces - Example: welcomelaws
• B) Dashes between words -Example: welcome-laws
• C) Spaces in between words- Example: welcome laws
• 1) Capital at start
• 2) Each Word Capitalised
• 3) all lowercase

Poll

• B and 1 - To match anon ones and seems to be most used. Excluding for abbreviations (like COI) where they should remain capitalised. RhinosF1^(chat)_{(status)(contribs)} 17:09, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
• D and 4 - allow all. There is no need for consistency. It’s the links that matter, not the style in which they are formatted. Blueboar (talk) 18:57, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

  Blueboar, I'm mainly suggesting this so they're easy to remember and find. RhinosF1^(chat)_{(status)(contribs)} 19:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose We do not need to vote on this. Natureium (talk) 20:32, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

  Natureium, As I said above having consistency will make it easier to locate templates. RhinosF1^(chat)_{(status)(contribs)} 20:57, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Discussion (Descriptive IP Welcomes)

Why do we need separate templates for IP editors and registered users? Couldn't the template code itself detect where it is being used? Let's not create a copy of each template if there is a more elegant solution. Updating copies of essentially the same content is tedious and error-prone. ~ ToBeFree (talk) 02:52, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Remove "suspected perpetrator" field in Template:Infobox civilian attack

(Discussion moved from Template talk:Infobox civilian attack#Suspected perpetrator field? on recommendation to gain full consensus.) I struggle to see the benefit of listing a "suspected perpetrator" in an infobox, especially when a suspect is part of an ongoing case and will be either removed or moved to "perpetrator" when that is complete. Looking at Christchurch mosque shootings and the contention over how prolific suspect Brenton Tarrant's name should be (see ongoing RfC about keeping suspect's/suspects' name in lead), I don't think his name in an infobox offers any encyclopedic value (officially and legally, as little doubt as there is over his guilt, it has not been proved yet) and if anything only unduly promotes his name which we should also avoid. When a suspect is proven to be a perpetrator, they become part of the historical/encyclopedic record of the attack rather than the subject of a current matter/desire for notoriety. Christchurch is one particular case, but I don't think it's unique in this regard. I suggest this field be removed. U-Mos (talk) 03:28, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

(Comment copied from original discussion) I concur. There's no reason for this parameter to exist – when the identity is known and certain, the appropriate parameter is "perpetrator", and when it is not, it doesn't belong in the infobox at all to begin with. TompaDompa (talk) 08:17, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

• I agree. This gets into NOTNEWS territory. We have to be aware that a reported “suspect” can be falsely accused (for example: the reports that Richard Jewell was a suspect in the bombing that took place during the Atlanta olympics). At a minimum, we need to wait until a “suspect” is actually charged with the crime before we report names. Blueboar (talk) 12:59, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
• I also agree. If suspects are to be named in the article then we can word things to make it clear that they are only suspects, and to say whether they have been charged or prosecuted, but an infobox entry is too blunt an instrument for such sensitive content. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:33, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
• The idea makes sense, but I know from how less experienced editors see infobox fields and if you took out the suspected perp field, they will want to fill the name in on the actual perp field because they feel it would complete the infobox (unaware of the implications of this towards BLPCRIME). --Masem (t) 13:36, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Well, that gets us into the murkier question of what fields should be included in an infobox in the first place. Perhaps we shouldn’t even have a “perpetrator” field. Indeed, when it comes to this sort of topic, we probably need to question whether an infobox is aporopriate at all. Is an infobox an appropriate method for conveying information in an article about a mass killing? Blueboar (talk) 13:55, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
    • Arguably yes, it just shouldn't be filled in until after conviction. (Contrast that to a religon= field in the BLP infobox ) Its that well-intentioned editors unaware of why the field is blank will think to fix it blindly. --Masem (t) 14:09, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
      • Deprecate |perpetrator= and add |convicted_perpetrator=. --Izno (talk) 14:15, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
        • That would of course mean that when the perpetrator dies and there is no trial, there is nowhere to add them. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. TompaDompa (talk) 17:28, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
          • I think we should find a way to identify the perpetrator in some such cases, for example if there is a mass shooting that ends with the perpetrator killing himself (it's nearly always a "him"). The best way to deal with this whole issue would be for Wikipedia to stop trying to be a news service and only to have articles about events when good secondary sources (which breaking news reports are not) exist, but people putting forward that point of view always seem to get shouted down by people saying, "of course it's notable, it's front-page headlines in all the newspapers." Phil Bridger (talk) 17:50, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
            • +1. Never lose the dream, even if forced to drop the stick. ―Mandruss ☎ 21:56, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
          • And in cases where the perpetrator dies and there is no trial I believe that there's a difference between jurisdictions. In some places an inquest into the death of a victim will name in its verdict the person who caused the death, and in others it will not. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:54, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

I support changing "perpetrator" to "convicted" - feels more appropriate for factual record rather than mere description of an event, and hypothetically if there was an appeal in process or new doubts over a historical case it wouldn't invite any unnecessary infobox changes. U-Mos (talk) 06:23, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Changing Wikipedia's infoboxes because some politicians want to play damnatio memoriae is not a good idea. Offering a choice of a "convicted" field per User:U-Mos is reasonable, but a plain "perpetrator" field should remain as an option even so. Because sometimes, for example, a widely known perpetrator might flee to ISIS territory or the next equivalent and not be prosecutable. Suspected perpetrators also should be described when sources widely describe the accusation. (WP:WELLKNOWN) Wnt (talk) 07:42, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't see how describing suspected perpetrators in the infobox, where the room for nuance is scant to none, would be helpful. In prose is a different matter. TompaDompa (talk) 10:34, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

Why not? There are a lot of cases where the perpetrator is known beyond reasonable doubt but will never be convicted. Judicial sentences are not the only reliable source of information. On contrary there are cases where the person convicted is known not to be the perpetrator! Would not it be helpful to describe convicted but not guilty persons in the inforbox where the room for nuance is scant to none helpful? You seem to put to much trust in formal convictions. In addition, what is conviction? There is no clear definition of this term. Ruslik_Zero 08:45, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

That a convicted person may not be the perpetrator seems a very good reason for the change to me. Having the field as "convicted" removes any form of supposition, leaving any nuances or complications to the prose where they can be outlined in all necessary detail. U-Mos (talk) 08:53, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

This is incredibly poor reason. 90% people do not read beyond the infobox. Ruslik_Zero 13:47, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

• Convicted is not quite the right answer. If the perp dies he is not convicted. If he confesses or brags/claims responsibility we can name without conviction. I'd venture that at least half the places this box would be used never see a conviction. Legacypac (talk) 09:28, 24 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Why's that an issue? If they die, and are therefore not convicted, do they need to be in an infobox? U-Mos (talk) 23:05, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
    • Yes, they need to be in the infobox because this is important information. Ruslik_Zero 13:47, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
      • +1 to LegacyPac's point about conviction being the wrong standard for this, with suicide bombings and most unprosecuted war crimes being two obvious cases where the perpetrator is known with certainty but there is no judicial process confirming guilt.--Carwil (talk) 17:15, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
• Creating an additional template for suspects and one for perpetrators would remove all the confusion. ^{~^\}\_\.rTG'{~ 23:35, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. In some cases it is appropriate for us to name the perpetrator prior to his conviction (e.g. when extremely widely reported in highly public events, or when the suspect evaded capture and trial (which in many places can't be done in absentia) - but it known with a high degree of certainty). In other cases - e.g. historic cases, events in warfare, etc - while we might not have a definite perpetrator it might still be appropriate to name in the infobox those covered extensively in RSes. Icewhiz (talk) 11:45, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
• The template should first be merged into {{Infobox event}}; then the parameters should be rationalised. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:40, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

RfC re: Categorizing all works (albums, songs) by an artist by genre

I've submitted an RfC re: the categorization of all works (albums, songs) by artists by genre.

Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Music#RfC_on_categorizing_all_works_by_an_artist_by_genre.

Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 17:01, 29 March 2019 (UTC)

Proposal to distribute print versions of Wikipedia

Article on ages which famous people would be today?

Someone noted to me today that if Bruce Lee had not died age 32 he’d be 78 now. Would it be okay to have an article listing ages which famous people who died young would be today? Seem to recall seeing this sort of thing reported in the news from time to time. And such an article in a book of lists. Hyperbolick (talk) 16:11, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Most of the coverage is trivial. I wouldn't have an article on such a list. --Izno (talk) 16:20, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Because the people may still be alive, this was done at List of people who disappeared mysteriously: post-1970 - the code to keep the ages (somewhat) accurate may be of interest, in case you want to create a list somewhere of favorite people. I don't think it should be a mainspace article. -- GreenC 16:54, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

We haven’t even got an article on dying young. Hyperbolick (talk) 16:57, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

Would that include everyone person for whom we have an article? A list full of thousands of names? It seems a terrible idea and I don't see how it could meet our notability criteria. Doug Weller talk 10:52, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Ponce de León would be 397 (and may well be). Randy Kryn (talk) 03:22, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I would agree this wouldn't seem very appropriate for an article; as @Doug Weller: notes, the numbers are potentially very large. For what it's worth, there are approximately 10-11,000 people who a) have English Wikipedia articles; b) were born in or after 1940 (so would be no older than 80 now); c) died at 40 or younger. Even skimming that down to just "particularly notable" people, however defined, would be a lot... Andrew Gray (talk) 18:37, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Without commenting on the value or otherwise of the concept, from a technical standpoint it could be implemented via collapsible multi-column lists by birth year? Anothersignalman (talk) 03:11, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

How old would Methuselah be now? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:49, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

• OPPOSE anything like this. It's trivia, trivial, and non-encyclopedic. GenQuest ^{"Talk to Me"} 09:38, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
• We already have the "on this day" section of the mainpage. I don't see a problem in having some birth centenaries there. ϢereSpielChequers 10:59, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:INDISCRIMINATE. MarnetteD|Talk 18:51, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose as irrelevant to the goal of the encyclopaedia. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^Bori! 00:19, 6 April 2019 (UTC)
• I found this idea to be very weird and strange in many respects. It should probably be archived at Wikipedia:Unusual requests. – Ammarpad (talk) 16:04, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

What links here option

I propose to allow a feature in the "What links here" to have the option to exclude pages where the only link is through a template. This would make it easier to clean up after a page move, so that only the pages that might need to be changed are shown. RedPanda25 17:05, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

This has been requested for many years; see phab:T14396. – Ammarpad (talk) 17:21, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Good to know it's being considered at least then. RedPanda25 18:19, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

It's a frequently requested feature. Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)/Archive 155#What Links Here vs.Templates has links to some of the requests here and at Phabricator. User:PrimeHunter/Source links.js tries to do what you want. It isn't always perfect. PrimeHunter (talk) 18:27, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Multi-tier referencing

Hi all,

I'm wondering if it would be possible to implement multi-tier referencing in articles, using reflist for the important/major facts and, say, "refminor/reflist-minor" for the other items? As an example, the article List of bus routes in Melbourne should include a lot more references. Noting operators should be fairly easy with grouped listings (i.e. routes X/Y/Z are all operated by A, and so on), but the claims specific to each route should also be referenced to specific pages. However, if that was done currently the reference list would probably balloon out from 32 to about a thousand, and finding information quickly would be a lot harder.

Thoughts?

Anothersignalman (talk) 02:56, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Are you familiar with {{sfn}} template? Ruslik_Zero 12:43, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

See Shortened footnotes. As an example, Live and Let Die (novel) (which is TFA today) uses them, albeit not exclusively. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:40, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Bring back Wikipedia:Featured portals?

Should we Bring back Wikipedia:Featured portals that ended in 2017? as I think it would be a good idea to feature portals that are high quality and it may help improve the quality of portals Abote2 (talk) 11:23, 7 April 2019 (UTC)