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Nishkid recently added a prohibition against usernames with the % symbol. Why? What do people think of this change? Mangojuicetalk 17:21, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since the prohibition of the = symbol was not accepted by the community I think a consensus should be formed for this new rule before it is added, unless there is some urgent reason I do not know about. (H) 17:26, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm, it probably screws some template up - but it's clear that putting 1= before a username in a template will make it work. That's the only reason I can think of. Ryan Postlethwaite 17:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Considering usernames with spaces mess up some template, I think template use is a poor reason for forbidding usernames. >Radiant< 08:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Caveat

Some admins appear to be somewhat too triggerhappy with respect to username blocks, so I think it may be good to add some counterexamples that are acceptable. One thing that comes to mind is a user with a "Pot" related name, that some people objected to as a reference to marijuana, irrespective of the fact that it could be a reference to pottery or any number of other things called "pot". >Radiant< 11:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Counter examples may be a good idea, but we must agree on them. Would someone like to come up with some examples? Ryan Postlethwaite 11:16, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The examples could be endless- just tell admins to use common sense. GDonato (talk) 13:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That's true, but the point is that some of them aren't. I've seen at least three admins in the past month that were overdoing it with respect to username blocks. Any thoughts on alleviating that would be appreciated. >Radiant< 13:35, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Not the best example, because even if a word like "Cannabis" with no other meanings is used, there is no rule against drug references(unless it is promoting it in a controversial way like "Smoke Cannabis through your ears!"). I am all for counter examples though. (H) 13:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think the best way to avoid bad username blocks is to specify the policy less, not more. This is what I was aiming at when I rewrote this section to be more clear about the reasons for username blocks rather than the specific rules. Mangojuicetalk 13:47, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Refer to vs. "promote or endorse"

I commented on this as part of my change above at #Inappropriate usernames (section 33), and no one ever had anything to say about it. As I explained there, it's pretty obvious that a username that can be taken as promoting or endorsing violence will be "offensive" (that being the real reason for disallowing), but merely referring to a violent action is prone to stretching and in many cases would not be disallowed. Take "Kick" for instance. Or "Slam". What about User:Killswitch? I think it's clear that such names cross the line into offensive when the promote or endorse the action, or can be taken that way. So a name like User:Killerman would still be prohibited, because it makes it sound like this person approves of killing. But User:Don'tkilltheleprechauns - refers to violence but doesn't endorse it, and isn't offensive. Mangojuicetalk 14:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • This part annoys me because having it at "promotes/endorses" allows usernames that should be blocked and "refers to" blocks names that should be allowed, why can't we have "Usernames promoting or endorsing violence should be blocked, those simply refering to violence may be blocked if they could reasonably be considered offensive." GDonato (talk) 14:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:Don'tkilltheleprechauns does not refer to real world violence so it is not at issue, same with User:Killswitch. Names like "Cop punching" or "nun slapping" or "criminal shooting" do not promote violence, but the mere mention of that real world violence is plenty disruptive. The "refers" to rule is important. The distinction that will prevent harmless names from being attacked is the "real world" part, and of course common sense(failing that RFCN). I somehow missed the discussion about removing this, or I would have objected. (H) 14:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think "refer to" is an important clause because in the absence of any qualifiers "No cop punching", just a statement of real-world violence on its own can be quite disruptive and even a tacit endorsement of the act in question. —dgiestc 18:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • GDonato got it quite right. His observation actually applies to all the specific rules here: we will never be able to write rules that disallow all bad names, but only bad names. So it comes down to a choice: would we rather block innocent newcomers with non-problematic names because of an overly restrictive rule, or would we rather allow a few bad usernames because the rule wasn't as restrictive as it could be? Personally, any username that's really bad would still be "offensive" so we're still covered. And if we let a few borderline cases in, (1) most accounts make a few edits and don't stick around anyway, (2) if they're here with bad intentions, we can always block them for their behvior, and (3) in any case, the name is borderline. I think the choice is obvious: we should write the rules to favor not biting the newcomers, as opposed to writing rules that will catch all offenders, because we stop the real bad apples anyway. Mangojuicetalk 18:09, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What are these innocent names being blocked? Do you have examples? I think we use our sense fairly well when making decisions, it is not like admins are computer programs blindly following the letter of policy. (H) 18:22, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They were theoretical, if the rule is rigidly "refers to" we risk blocking things like User:Punch, those promting and/or endorsing should certainly be blocked but names simply referring to violance should not always be blocked, however in other times they should, rather than being too reliant on the letter of the username policy all the time we can ignore it and use common sense when necessary- spirit over letter. GDonato (talk) 19:57, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, we should use "common sense." Or, in other words, block the name for being offensive and not block if it's not offensive. See the previous section: I'm not the only one who sees a problem with people being trigger-happy. And in addition, it's not just those who ultimately enforce the policy that matter: we have a lot of well-meaning but at times overzealous non-admins who report possible violations at WP:UAA, and I would prefer to rein them in a bit. Mangojuicetalk 02:32, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
But it has been that way for a long time, and no examples are forthcoming, so I am not entirely convinced of these theoretical problems. I think we have been using common sense. (H) 03:20, 27 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to agree with H. A username may not promote or endorse a violent action, but referring to it is just as bad. And, to echo H, common sense and the "real-world" aspect of the clause keeps the bite to a minimum. Besides, if it's really not clear, express concern and hope to get it changed. CASCADIAHowl/Trail 19:47, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's hilarious - this call for examples of non-offensive usernames that have been blocked! This from the same people who NEVER provide any examples of any disruption or offense caused by the names they fight so constantly to block. It's not rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic before it sinks - it's rearranging them over and over again on a ship that has never been in any danger of sinking. It's the same old crap no matter how many times these policies are tweaked - entrenched regulars (and always the same names cropping up) enjoying themselves by abusing newcomers with their beloved process and rules that end up serving NOTHING. The refer/promote/endorse dispute would shame the most hidebound Stalinist party hack. TortureIsWrong 22:39, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Instead of mocking our attempts to create policy, perhaps you have something constructive to contribute. (H) 22:53, 28 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think we can be lenient to borderline cases, because the people who mean their names in a "bad way" tend to get blocked for other issues, e.g. vandalism, in short order. >Radiant< 09:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Exactly. And those who are here in good faith with a questionable username will be open to communication about it, but will simply be alienated by being blocked or by demands that they change their name... especially over an arbitrary legalistic policy. And, while we're at it, I worry that username blocking in general is a form of giving recognition to those who are trying to provoke a response (see WP:DENY). Mangojuicetalk 14:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Non-latin usernames

In the discussion of a username made of korean characters at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User names I tried to get this username disallowed, but I (and the ones who started the case) was met with : "From WP:U#Signatures: "Non-Latin usernames are allowed, but if you have one you are encouraged to customize your signature to include a transliteration." ". But I cannot read this username! Surely, it must be an argument that people can not read it? And there are two levels of not been able to read it: a) people get squares b) even if it properly rendered, it is of a set of letters we have never learned. Perhaps the policy was made with Russian and Greek letters in mind: letters of which it is about 50 or so, and they are easily learned for a person who has first learnt English. But here we are talking about opening up for thousands and thousands of charachters, from a totally different culture, and really a hopeless task to learn unless you spend the rest of your life with it. I urge you, we cannot allow this usernames: when you get more than just a very small handful of active users with this kinds of names, it will be hopeless to distinguish them. I may be culturally biased, but to me, this drawings is not a name in the English-speaking world at all. So I ask for someone to think twice about this. And I know they want to merge all the usernames: well, then we found a problem with that. Greswik 11:27, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • It's been discussed many times before, but the point is that not everybody in the world uses the English alphabet. A second point is that the Developers are working on "universal login", which would allow one user to use the same name automatically on all Wikipedia projects. Obviously, a Japanese name is valid on Jpwiki, so it would automatically be used here as well. >Radiant< 11:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can understand the single user login requiring us to allow foreign characters, but latin transliterations should be used for a signature. (H) 12:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • And that's precisely what the guideline recommends, so what exactly is the problem? >Radiant< 14:26, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No problem in my eyes. As long as a transliterated signature links to the userpage or talk page then it is fine. (H) 14:39, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Greswick, has this been a real problem for you or an imagined one? In other words, do you feel this could be a problem in interacting with this user, or have you actually tried to interact with users with this kind of username before and had big problems? From my own experience, any non-keyboard symbol can't be typed out, so a username like User:이주헌 really isn't any more of a problem than a name like User:Cortès: in both cases, I have to either find a link and click on it, or cut & paste the username into the search box. Now, if there were many different editors with usernames consisting only of asian characters I can't read all editing in the same place, I might have a hard time telling them apart, but as H points out, this could be solved by having good signatures. Mangojuicetalk 14:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • It has not been a real problem, I am thinking ahead here. My "feeling" is this will be a problem when we get many users with this kinds of names. They have very little recognition-effect: now, when we can read the names, names quickly turns into (at least for me) "that's a good editor", or "ouch, is this a sneaky vandal, or just someone with a very bad touch?". But it may be too late to start stopping this names if we end up regretting letting them in. To request a transliteration in the signature is a good thing, but when we only say "recommended", it is not mandatory, and we don't actually sign most of our work here anyway. And I must admit i don't like them 'cause I can't read them, they make me feel stupid ;-) - and I know thats a silly argument. Still, I am surprised people think allowing thousands of characters only an infinite fraction here can read is so OK.Greswik 16:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why be surprised? Wikimedia runs over 700 projects, and en.wikipedia is only one of them. People from other projects need to be able to use their logins here too. :-) --Kim Bruning 16:09, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, to me, English wikipedia is the common ground- the one using the international language English. To enter it with japanese text is defamation. (I may come out stronger than intended here;-))Greswik 16:18, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ah yes, to the average American, all Asians look the same, grumble grumble :) >Radiant< 16:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(3x ec) You know, I've never had a chance to say this, but I think the whole "confusing usernames" thing is overemphasized in this policy. I mean, it's one thing if someone is going for impersonation, but can you imagine a user User:Grewiki? It's similar to your name... but if they're not following you around trying to impersonate you, it wouldn't create a real problem. Chances are they'd edit in a different area from you, and most discussions do not really have so many voices in them anyway. And even if it does happen once in a blue moon, it's not the end of the world. I guess that's why I'm not worried about non-latin characters: because I don't think usernames are ever really that confusing, except when it's on purpose. Mangojuicetalk 16:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unified login would be complete bollocks without non-Latin characters, so what is the point of this discussion? In any case, I understand two selective comments above:
  • Signatures in Latin script should be mandatory.
  • Since not all our contribs are in talkpages (duh), there should be a mandatory transliteration and/or translation of the foreign username on the userpage.
Contribution lists, history pages etc should not be a problem, because the foreign name will be linkable to this information. That's my two non-Latin drachmae. Please comment. NikoSilver 16:33, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now, you're talking. But the transliteration needs to be automatic somehow- and show up in every lists. This means users from the korean, japanese etc wikis should need to verify the transliteration first time they move from their own wiki to this. This also means there is no point in accepting usernames in non-latin (ie non-latin, non-cyrillic and non-greec characters, per above) into this wiki without transliterations verified by their user. (So, I don't give up.;-)) Greswik 16:47, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Non-latin usernames, revisited

The issue of non-latin usernames has come up again, with the User:だってばよ request.

Some editors, myself included, favour disallowing non-latin characters in usernames because they violate the policy on confusing usernames, since they cannot be read by a majority of our users. Others point to the section that states that non-latin usernames are allowed.

While it's true that the whole world doesn't speak English, this is the English Wikipedia. It seems eminently fair to require all usernames to be readable by English speakers. Exploding Boy 23:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting proposal, but no - we can't do it. Unified login is coming in soon, so we have to let non latin character usernames edit, as some will be coming from countries that don't use atin characters. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

copied from WT:RFCN:

Proposal

Please see m:Help:Unified login before commenting here

My considerations:

  1. Non-Latin usernames allowed clearly by WP:U mainly because of m:Help:Unified login (which would otherwise be rendered useless)
  2. Naturally very few people on earth have the capacity of reading all scripts, so there are bound to be unintelligible usernames (for most/many/some/few --doesn't matter)

Solution which is already foreseen: WP:U asks politely to tweak signature to Latin.

IMHO the above solution is insufficient, and creates lots of windows for numerous trolls. It also makes it hard for users to locate a username which they cannot type.

Proposed Solution:

  • WP:SIG to clearly state mandatory Latin sigs (for example with the transliteration or translation of the foreign username).
  • WP:UP to clearly require mandatory Latin user redirects of the same signed name to the foreign userpage and talkpage.
  • WP:UP to clearly require a mandatory explanation on the foreign userpage concerning the chosen name, the signature, and the redirects that lead to it, by means of a template which will be created for this specific reason.
  • Third users to be able to create (and possibly protect) Latin-username-redirects (to the foreign-usernames) to help themselves (and others) navigate/locate the foreign-usernames.
  • WP:U to briefly mention the above, without implying that users failing to comply will be permabanned.

That, proposed by a Greek. NikoSilver 00:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I support restricting usernames to the Latin-1 character set because this is an English wiki and most people cannot type foreign characters on their keyboards to do things like directly go to a user page. I see no problem with using non-Latin scripts as part of a sig. If were to demand use of Devanagari my username would be बुद्धिप्रिय, by the way. Buddhipriya 00:25, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, we can't restrict it due to unified log-in comming very shortly. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How do you know very shortly? There seem to have been no updates since November 2006. Secretlondon 23:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ryan, but this is not sufficient apparently. See above, I hope that solves it. NikoSilver 00:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I support mandatory latin sigs here, on this version of Wikipedia. It's hard enough trying to read some people's user names, with all the bells and whistles people insist on attaching, and the weird characters they insert. This is the English language Wikipedia; users here must be able to read each other's user names.

Really, I don't see what's so useful about the unified login anyway. I also edit the Japanese Wikipedia sometimes, and I have to login there separately. It's not a big deal, and the unified login system won't remove the need to do some things separately on each local site a user edits. Exploding Boy 05:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Criticizing the unified usernames idea is not constructive. Anyways, we have a good suggestion from NikoSilver, which I support. However, there's no reason to require that the signature be a transliteration or translation. I think any latin character signature will do. nadav (talk) 07:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, good point. I obviously overestimated the possibility of someone using foreign usernames that are disallowed here (for example curses in foreign languages); but nobody guarantees they won't lie in the first place. I guess it can go, and be evaluated on separate bases. I'm striking it (modifs in purple color). NikoSilver 16:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Which suggestion of NikoSilver's do you support? Ok, so let's say that someone has the user name 猫. If they use the signature "Neko," and I type "user:Neko" into the search box, will I be able to find that user? Exploding Boy 16:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, (if the second bullet is also mandatory). User:Neko will redirect to User:猫. The only problem remaining is that it will still read 猫 (not Neko) in history pages, but you can always click to see it's them (no biggie, I guess). NikoSilver 17:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, because currently that doesn't seem to work. Similar issues have come up with signatures as well, where users have signatures that are different from their user names, because there's so much potential for confusion, especially since some users change their signatures frequently. I think this makes it clearer: the best option is to require latin-character user names right off the bat. Exploding Boy 17:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't because there's no redirect in the name that appears on the sig. Click User:N! to see what will happen. NikoSilver 17:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Edit by NikoSilver under new user id: Please see what happens with User:Παράδειγμα (Paradigma). Check that User:Paradigma and User talk:Paradigma redirect where appropriate. Also check their proposed signature: Paradigma (talk) 18:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I tested the links and they appear to work correctly (assuming that correct result is redirection to the Greek-language version of the pages). This is an interesting method. I am unsure if this method will address the real problem on the English language Wikipedia, which is that most users on it will only be able to understand English. For example, if I did a similar redirection to my username in Devanagari it is quite possible that users who followed the link from User:Buddhipriya to User:बुद्धिप्रिय might become confused because they would not be expecting to see that result. From a usability point of view, arriving at a place you do not recognize after clicking a link is potentially confusing. But the technique you have demonstrated is quite interesting. Some scripts, including Devanagari, are not universally-supported on all computers, so I am also curious if in my example there are some viewers who only see little boxes where my username would be. ॐ गं गणपतये नमः Buddhipriya 19:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Shall we add to the proposal then:
  • WP:U to clearly require a mandatory explanation on the foreign userpage concerning the chosen name, the signature, and the redirects that lead to it.
This may be a little redundant, since the foreign page (if redirected from) will read above "Redirected by User:Paradigma", but I admit the comment is in rather small font and may go unnoticed. Comments? NikoSilver 19:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We should create a template specifically for this purpose. nadav (talk) 21:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The template is a fantastic idea. I'm adding the proposal above shortly. NikoSilver 21:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I even added a proposed template text in User:Παράδειγμα. Please modify mercilessly (needs some code expert too for the variables). NikoSilver 21:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't solve the problem of characters not displaying properly. Characters in certain scripts appear for me as a bunch of squares, like: 口口口口口. I can easily imagine a scenario where several users with non-latin usernames all editing the same page could create chaos. Exploding Boy 22:53, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The problem with characters not rendering correctly is so common with Hinduism and India articles that many of the pages have links to the following page which is just to help users figure out how to render Indic scripts: Help:Multilingual_support_(Indic). The little boxes are symtoms of Unicode characters that do not exist in fonts available on the user computers. Buddhipriya 01:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Guys, please. Let's all change attitude from "here, there's one more problem" to "that's what we can do about it". We are faced with some facts which are beyond our control:

We are compelled to accept Non-Latin signatures by force majeure. End of story!!

Now, I sympathize with the argument that two distinct same-letter-long foreign usernames may appear as identical same-length-squares in one's history page if he hasn't installed Hindu/Greek/Aramaic/Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Arabic fonts, but unless you have something to propose to solve the problem, then this is not helpful. I think my proposal above deals with most of the circumstances, and is the least that we can do for now. If you have anything to add, I am all ears for proposals, but commenting on the appropriateness of m:Help:Unified login is pointless. NikoSilver 21:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I fully support this reasonable, pragmatic approach. If we all agree, will this be enough consensus to change the policy? nadav (talk) 21:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The simplest solution is to require latin-character user names. Exploding Boy 23:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I don't want to indulge into meaningless discussions over issues for which we are not eligible to discuss or decide. I think that the proposal above is the mē cheíron véltiston, especially for you guys that want to wipe all non-Latin scripts from user existence. Bluntly, it's this, or nothing. NikoSilver 23:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to go bold in editing policy, so if there's anyone with an objection, please state it here. If no objections are posted for another three days, I'll go on and modify WP:U myself to include all three points proposed above. It is really frustrating that people sometimes jump in to state their objections only after someone has made the edit, so please spare us the back and forth by commenting here within this reasonable timeframe. NikoSilver 11:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

People keep saying things like "this or nothing," and I support "this proposal." What do they mean? There are several options there that I can see, first of all, and second, why is it "this or nothing"? The obvious solution is to require latin-character usernames. By the way, it's interesting that you linked to that list of Greek phrases; most of them were unreadable for me, with little squares in many of the words. That type of thing is exactly what we want to avoid with usernames. Exploding Boy 16:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know why you have to be told by three people numerous times that rejecting non-Latin names is not an option. Do you understand this? NikoSilver 16:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not even clear that the unified login is going forward, and if it does, there's STILL no reason not to restrict usernames to latin characters only. Exploding Boy 16:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I asked specifically for that purpose in meta and got the response to check bugzilla:57. Everything looks like this is happening from moment to moment. Do you have different feedback? Also, please describe how the "STILL" comment is going to happen. NikoSilver 16:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's currently no consensus about the unified login. I've just read the talk page, and people are still talking about the feasability of the scheme, and about issues just of this sort. It looks to be a long way from being implemented. Given that it's easy to have all one's edits transferred from username to username, the best solution would be to move forward with the policy and state that non-latin usernames are not allowed. That could easily be changed if the unified login ever came to fruition. Exploding Boy 16:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I only see apparently you, so "people" is an overstatement. Frankly, I see no good coming from this discussion, and will stop here. NikoSilver 17:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I wrote the last part concerning user names, but if you trouble to read the entire talk page you'll discover that there is currently no consensus, so you can drop the "*sigh*" from your edit summaries, ok? Exploding Boy 18:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unified login may happen tomorrow, or it may happen this Fall. It's going to happen, probably sooner rather than later, and as soon as the bugs get worked out. This is an official Wikimedia Foundation Statement®. Cary Bass demandez 18:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Unified login is targeted for mediawiki version 1.10, the very next version which is already overdue. See mw:MediaWiki roadmap.
I see 2 issues here
  • people not being able to type the name of another user, eg: to talk about what they said earlier in the talk page. This could be solved by requiring at least some English text in their sig.
  • Not being able to find their userpage. This could be fixed by making their sig a link to their userpage as normal.
So a good sig would be बुद्धिप्रिय Buddhipriya. Are there other problems, or is this fixed already? --h2g2bob (talk) 18:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

None of this solves the problem of different users with non-latin usernames whose user and user talk pages are still unreadable. Requiring people to have latin-character sigs with redirects is an acknowledgement that a problem exists; what happens when I'm redirected to a page with a user name that looks like this: 口口口口口? And what if many people have non-latin user names, all of which don't display properly? No amount of signature modification will fix that. Exploding Boy 20:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The policy changes proposed above are too draconian, and won't be enforced; the old way of doing things (making suggestions and explaining the reasoning) is better. Seriously: a foreign user shows up and doesn't make redirects or a signature. So what? If they're making constructive edits and aren't needing to get involved in complicated discussions, there's no need to force them to do anything, (and none of the above would make a latin name show up in a page history, but there are links there anyway). If they are in some discussions, they should be asked to make a readable signature, so that other users don't get confused. If they're going to make lots of contributions here they will most likely be reasonable people and agree, so no need to force them with a draconian policy. And if someone doesn't want to obey, so what, I don't imagine anyone would be willing to block someone for this, unless the user had other behavior issues. After all, usernames that are a bit confusing are really not that big of a problem to anyone. Keep in mind that these are very likely established editors on other Wiki projects, and we should not be trying to keep them from helping. Mangojuicetalk 20:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What's "draconian" about requiring people to have user names that everyone can read? Exploding Boy 20:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Requiring" it. What do you suggest we do to people who don't have usernames that people can read, and don't follow the requirements? Currently, the default for violations of WP:U is indefinite blocking. If you're suggesting that we go a completely different way, I might not call it draconian, but the way this all reads now, it sounds like those who don't comply will have their accounts blocked. That's draconian in my book. Mangojuicetalk 20:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if they're refusing to follow the policy, which is what you seem to be describing, then they should be blocked, don't you agree? Exploding Boy 20:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I absolutely disagree. Look, we don't even block vandals on their first edit, we warn them and try to let them know it's okay to edit Wikipedia while trying to correct their behavior. Even then, we are likely to give people second, third, fourth chances. In fact, just about every behavior issue on Wikipedia is handled where blocking is a last resort, and we accept inherently that we should only be blocking people for being seriously disruptive, especially non-temporary blocks. And yet, here, a much more harsh policy is being proposed for a violation of a common-sense behavior request that is a far lower priority than things like not making personal attacks or not vandalizing. Mangojuicetalk

This is a very rational input from Mangojuice. For the record, I hadn't thought of what should be done to people "who refuse to obey". I agree that permablocking is indeed too hard. Polite suggestions may help better, and serious vandals often get caught further down the road. How about we just state these three in the #Proposal above in policy and then have the "legal background" in order to politely ask them? Let's just leave punishment for non compliance an open issue. NikoSilver 21:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On a side note, I hate it that Exploding Boy wouldn't take the word of three users for it and we had to call the cavalry to convince him that m:Unified login is an uncontrollable reality. NikoSilver 21:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The policy states that in cases of inappropriate usernames "you will be asked to choose a new username; in egregious cases, your account will simply be permanently blocked." Seems clear.
To Niko, I object to your sneaky redirect, above. I wasn't failing to assume good faith; there's no consensus about the Unified login yet. Again: read the Unified login talk page. It may be that if people want to use the Unified login they will have use latin characters. We don't know yet. Exploding Boy 21:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're kidding. Right? NikoSilver 21:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

About what? Have you read the discussion on [1]? Exploding Boy 21:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How difficult is it for you to understand that Wikimedia Foundation Statements® are not subject to any amount of debate? Did anybody ask you if e.g. you like the WP logo? NikoSilver 22:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to ask you one last time to stop writing offensive edit summaries ("sigh"; "double sigh") and using sneaky redirects. When you've finished making a big production of being irritated, perhaps you can read that discussion page and understand that there is currently no consensus about how the Unified login will work or how it will affect user names. Exploding Boy 22:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

@Mangojuice: What would you say if we alternatively added those bullets above to WP:UP and WP:SIG respectively (which are guidelines) and may help avoid the permaban issue, while also help the others advise users who do not comply, based on some sort of rule? NikoSilver 22:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If the "rule" was put in WP:SIG rather than here, I don't think there'd be a presumption that violating the rule would result in a long-term block. So yeah, that's a good solution. It should probably be mentioned here as a non-infraction, though, to be clear. Mangojuicetalk 22:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks; I modified the #Proposal to reflect that (I also removed the purple comments etc since they're obviously acceptable). NikoSilver 22:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) I've read through the whole issue from top to toe now, Niko and I feel your three bullets above look like a reasonable compromise and something I could endorse - Alison ☺ 23:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Alison, they are now four :-). Now we're left with only one problem. See the following example history page:

  • (cur) (last) 23:01, June 11, 2007 口口口口口 (Talk | contribs) (179,755 bytes) (→Proposal - comment)
  • (cur) (last) 22:59, June 11, 2007 口口口口口 (Talk | contribs) m (179,345 bytes) (→Proposal - p->P)
  • (cur) (last) 22:58, June 11, 2007 口口口口口 (Talk | contribs) (179,345 bytes) (→Proposal - modified)
  • (cur) (last) 22:53, June 11, 2007 Mangojuice (Talk | contribs) (179,110 bytes) (→Proposal)
  • (cur) (last) 22:13, June 11, 2007 NikoSilver (Talk | contribs) (178,665 bytes) (→Proposal - @Mangojuice)
  • (cur) (last) 22:09, June 11, 2007 口口口口口 (Talk | contribs) (178,297 bytes) (→Proposal)

This may show to one who hasn't installed X font. The worst part is that all four (in this case) "口口口口口" looking users could actually be different people. Does anyone have an idea on how this too could be sorted out? Popups would help, but not all have it/want it. NikoSilver 23:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Eep! This sounds like a developer problem. Wonder is it possible to render the usernames into some unique UTF-8 format, that could still be unique, yet (semi-) legible? It's a tricky problem ... - Alison ☺ 04:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • 1) We have to allow non-Latin usernames
  • 2) Even if we were allowed to block non-latin usernames (which we're not) there'd still be usernames with non-latin characters existing on EN-Wiki. Username policy tends not to be retro-active, so those non-Latin chars would be grandfathered in.
  • 3) The username policy will probably need lots of tweaking to 'fix' stuff to fit with non-Latin chars. For example, what does "closely resemble another username" mean in the context of an alphabet that I have no familiarity with?
  • 4) The technical stuff (fonts etc) needs some clear, easy, walkthrough to allow users to update their system. Many people have no need to install fonts for other languages, and when they do they tend to install a limited set of fonts. It can see that it'd be a bit frustrating to have to install tens of megabytes of fonts just to be able to see usernames on wiki.
  • 5) The U page says (at the moment) that can't always see names written in another character set. This isn't the full truth - how do I get to the userpage of ???, and how do I disambiguate the useful contributor ???? from the nasty troll/vandal ????.
  • Just to make it clear: I fully support NikoSilver's proposal. Dan Beale 07:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Dan. I think we should put a note in WT:SIG and WT:UP for more input, since technically it is these guidelines that will be modified the most if this proposal goes through. Will do now. NikoSilver 09:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that I heard an idea that would include the UserID next to the User name, thus allowing us to distinguish between 口口口口口 and 口口口口口 in the history. Bastique 15:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That would save it indeed. Although I am convinvinced that most users dealing with e.g. Korean articles get into the trouble to install Korean fonts. What do you think about the rest of the points Bastique? Should we encourage foreign users to help us navigate with the #Proposal above, or is it too much to ask? If the proposal went through, what would you do if someone persistently disobeyed? NikoSilver 16:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I can't support this proposal. I doubt we'll even have a significant issue with non-lat sigs and pages, and I sure as hell can't see us mandating this kind of thing. Maybe make it recommended, but anyone who wants to "disobey" damn well has a right to. I don't see a significant benefit (due to the lack of significant problem), and can see this just pissing a lot of people off because some joe shmoe says "you have non-latin characters in your username, and we're gonna block you because of that". If someone can't report some user for vandalism because of their font support, then install the required fonts and get with the program. We're Wikipedia, for crying out loud, and we don't live in the stone age. -- Ned Scott 06:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

A similar consideration was brought up by Mangojuice 3-4 comments above. He mainly objected to the fact that inclusion of such rules in WP:U (policy) would automatically result to permablocking of the violators, which he found too strict. The proposal was modified to suggest that WP:UP and WP:SIG (guidelines) were altered instead. I too feel that permablocking (or blocking in general for that matter) is too hard (well, except if we see apparent WP:POINT abuse by means of the foreign username). NikoSilver 08:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Astonishingly, there are increasing examples of users with non-Latin names. Two recent examples only slipped in WP:RFCN (although they are allowed) [2], [3], and check also how many there are in Greek and Cyrillic/Arabic/Hindu. Things are about to get much "worse" (scare quotes because my mother tongue has a non-Latin script and because I actually endorse them) with m:Help:Unified login coming shortly. In that sense, this #Proposal is preemptive, which is especially important since username violations that have been "grandfathered to" (i.e. problematic usernames created before policy tweak that bans them) tend to be forgiven, and stay. NikoSilver 08:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Their main objection to users who have politely requested to tweak their sigs (or create user redirects) was that "there's no such rule". The reason of the proposal is to give some sort of "legal background" to those who want to advise a user to help them navigate easier to locate their name (since they can't type it, and can't remember how it even looks). Given all that, would you suggest we reword the proposal a little to reflect that, or you still want to scrap it? NikoSilver (or ΝικοΣίλβερ, or НикоСилвер, or ..., go figure how to type it in Arabic/Chinese/Hindu/Korean/Japanese to find me without a link, or even refer to me in a talkpage if you can't read how 猫猫猫 is even pronounced!) 08:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
We're asking users on ENWIKI to have a latin sig, do any of the other wikis ask their users to have a non-latin sig? Does, eg: JapanWiki ask users to romajify or kanjify their sigs? It'd be interesting to see if other wikis have had this problem, and how they've dealt with it. Dan Beale 14:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Undoubtedly, the Latin alphabet is universally recognizable by most, so I wouldn't expect restrictions for that specifically. I would expect restrictions for e.g. Korean and Arabic in the Greek wiki and vice versa. The Greek wiki does not even have a SIG guideline yet, and the UPage/UName ones are sort of primitive too. Obviously, the necessity for these rules is proportional to the traffic, plus ENWIKI seems to be the favorite universal POV battleground for most foreign users (and trolls). In my experience very few foreigners (and trolls!) have visited ELWIKI (EL for Greek) and to tell you the truth I'd be surprised a lot to see a Japanese editor there. NikoSilver 14:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dan Beale has raised some very good points here. Exploding Boy 16:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Thinking more about this, I can see supporting it as a strong recommendation, and/or even allowing others to make a redirects, etc, if said user doesn't wish to make them, stuff like that. The ban part really put me off, but other than that I can see the value in the guideline. -- Ned Scott 02:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Ned. Your input for allowing others to create redirects is very valuable and should have obviously been included earlier! I'll add it and hope everybody agrees too. NikoSilver 14:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Anything new here? Shall we proceed? NikoSilver 19:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Let's go ahead with it. If it's reverted we can discuss it futher. nadav (talk) 02:47, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I made the relevant tweaks in WP:U#NL, WP:UP#NL and WP:SIG#NL. Please correct me. NikoSilver 22:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Changed nutshell

I have changed the nutshell at the top to reflect the fact the policy does not say usernames have to be readable to English speakers. Indeed, it allows it: "Some editors on this Wikipedia will be unable to read a username written in non-Latin alphabets, such as Chinese. Non-Latin usernames are allowed, but if you have one you are encouraged to customize your signature to include a transliteration." Moreover, the nutshell formulation is not enforced: [4]. Instead of the readability to English speakers, I added "or promotional," since this occurs a lot and should be described in the header. nadav (talk) 07:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The unintelligibility issue hasn't yet been resovled, so removing it from the nutshell is a little premature.
The reality is that several parts of the policy contradict each other. As can be seen from the discussion above, there is some support for requiring some kind of concenssion to readability (ie: requiring either signatures or user names to be in latin script so as to be readable by speakers of English). I don't think we should remove this part before some kind of agreement is reached. Additionally, the signature policy needs to be looked at in conjunction with any decision. Exploding Boy 16:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is a result of partial modifications for agreed principles. Non-Latin usernames are allowed for reasons out of our control, and that should have been reflected in every part of the policy. Unfortunately it was only partially included. I endorse Nadav's change (but endorsing it is already redundant as explained). NikoSilver 17:48, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am surprised and disappointed that Exploding Boy has reverted my edit, which was thoroughly explained and is supported by current practice, majority opinion, and explicit statement in the policy. Exploding Boy, you should be pragmatic and not take an all-or-nothing approach, which at most will leave us with the status quo (i.e. users in practice having non latin character usernames). Even if you were to pretend that the current policy is that users with non-latin usernames have to change it, none of the 1000+ administrators will enforce it. Hence I am reverting the nutshell back to my edit. nadav (talk) 08:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not archiving

Is this page not supposed to auto-archive? GDonato (talk) 21:49, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Over-Lenience

I was about to post the following comment in WP:ANI, but edit conflicted [sic] with Viridae closing the debate there, and prompting to use this page. So here goes:

  • FWIW I too think that we're too lenient with apparently [partly] offensive usernames. I consider the right of few not to be offended more important than the right of one not to change a name. Especially when those "few" become "many". I think the word "may" in the nutshell (and the policy itself) describes what I'm saying. Unfortunately, I am a minority in this interpretation, and it is interpreted that all have to be offended in order for action to be taken, or that "few"/"many" is not enough of a violation of WP:U... NikoSilver 00:00, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Do you have a suggestion that would give us a less blurred line? Few is pretty vague, should one person be enough, two? (H) 03:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My general rule is a consensus. If a majority of editors appear offended, I have no problem blocking it. The problem is that most names are not black and white however the outcome generally is(I.E., there are differnt levels of offensive and the outcome is they are blocked or not). The sad thing is almost any name can offend somebody so it makes it difficult to make decisions. I think this is where interpretation of the policy is important, as well as attempting to gain community input WP:RFCN. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 03:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that we should go by consensus, like we do with everything else. (H) 04:16, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus is how practically everything is decided on Wikipedia. I fail to see a reason to treat this any differently. EVula // talk // ☯ // 04:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Gentlemen, consensus must not be of the form "USSR is bad, let us nuke USSR" or vice versa. Those "few" may be 25% or 10% or even 5%. The are still many, yet they can hardly enforce their opinion when the rest oppose! When I express my opinion in RFCN, I do so by taking in mind what those few may think; not necessarily what I think. Sadly, I notice that others express their own perceived offensiveness/non-offensiveness. WP:U says "may", and it says so clearly. NikoSilver 09:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Other than that, I agree with H's comment that the line is blurred, so I think that no-consensus should default to "disallow", rather than "allow" that it does now. NikoSilver 09:46, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
To give an example, I think that the recent "ChicagoPimp's" username will be offensive for a sufficient amount of people so as to warrant forcing him to change it. I, personally, may not be offended by "pimp", or may actually see the good interpretations of "pimp"; yet some others (49% - 30% - 10% --I don't particularly care) will obviously find it offensive. They are doomed to accept it because the rest of us are simply more. I think this is bad. NikoSilver 10:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That "no consensus" should default to rename is something to consider. However, I am perturbed by your suggestion that a small minority of people should be able to dictate sensitivities to the majority and the user concerned. I can see bad things in store for such policy. It's susceptible to the slippery slope, and I can easily image bad-faith name change requests getting more attention and weight than they deserve. I think consensus is still the best fundamental approach. nadav (talk) 10:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Please do not let me be misunderstood. Yes, consensus is the best approach, but practice shows that people do not consider the minorities in question when they cast their opinions. They consider what "pimp" may mean for pimp to be excused; not what "pimp" may mean for people to be rationally offended (not necessarily including them). "It doesn't offend me because there are alternative meanings too" is in my opinion fallacious. My approach would be "it may/may-not offend me, but some people are likely to be offended by one interpretation [the most prevalent in this case], so we cannot allow it". Unfortunately, that is not the case with the votes; people are saying what they think, not what others may think, even if they are few.NikoSilver 15:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would find it detestful if minorities governed us. I also find it detestful that minorities are to be oppressed because sunk in our own biases we fail to take them into consideration. In a world where voters and admins in RFCN could speak for others, consensus would be correct. The case in practice, however, shows that everybody speaks for themselves, and minorities are bound to be oppressed. NikoSilver 15:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
We run by consensus, that is not vote counting. If people said "USSR is bad, let us nuke USSR", then a proper view of consensus would ignore such opinions as not based in policy. (H) 15:59, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, that would be the right thing. The question is, do you feel we are doing it? I don't. NikoSilver 16:05, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Recent discussions were tricky because they very quickly got very hot. Is this a problem with RFCN or policy? Maybe, partly, but there were problems with a few users too. Also, about policy: Offensive usernames that may make harmonious editing difficult or impossible, including but not limited to: [. . .] Usernames that refer to a medical condition or disability, especially in a belittling way seems pretty clear to me. So how does stuff like Ment4lbreakdown get closed in under an hour? Maybe the list of reasons for blockable names needs to be on the actual report page, so that people say why they're bringing the name for comment, and people involved in the discussion refer to what the policy actually is. Dan Beale 20:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Policy says "may"; we are practicing "mostly by far". NikoSilver 16:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think we are applying policy with sense. If anything the policy should be changed to reflect our practice. How about "likely to offend"? (H) 16:58, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I find the policy as is to make great sense. I find no sense in our practice. I would love if our practice was changed to reflect policy. Offending many people over one's right to [borderline/lame/trollish/abusive] self-identification is wrong in my view. NikoSilver 19:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think this is key to many of the username disputes. Personally, I think we're fairly strict on usernames, far more so than any other major website such as yahoo or google and I really don't think we should get any stricter on usernames. In my opinion, it would be best to open up the username policy a bit, allow a few to get through, I mean, come on - how is poop offensive to anyone?! Ryan Postlethwaite 19:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, "poop" is far better than "pimp". I think that we should enforce what we decide strictly, and what we decide must be correct. But making the policy to include too lame things in order to apply it leniently is wrong IMO. NikoSilver 19:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think the policy is fine. I think we have been making username block decisions fine. I cannot see any decision I disagree with(other than allowing "everyonehateschris" which is just as bad as "diepauldie") in recent time. (H) 13:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I thought you wanted to change policy to reflect our more lenient practice. In any case, I don't want to be the one with the stick next to the horse carcass here. If most of you think it is OK to suppress the perceived (or not) offensiveness of users who share the view that e.g. "pimp" is offensive, because of the fact they may be fewer than the rest who don't, fine by me. I've made my point. NikoSilver 14:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I actually agree with Niko here. Exploding Boy 16:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes Exploding Boy, we actually agree all along in the general directions in both sections (here and above). We only disagreed on the procedural solutions for the same (or extremely similar) end results. I think that the new considerations of Mangojuice and Ned Scott above shed some more light as to what is actually feasible or not (regardless of Foundation statements; but also from feasible consensus). From my part, I apologize for assuming that your position in not taking Unified Login as an incontrovertible fact could hinder the #Proposal, and I would appreciate your explicit support there too, given that even if Unified Login doesn't go through as planned, it is highly unlikely that we can gain consensus for harder measures (including permaban/blocks for violators of my moderate proposal, not to mention banning of non-Latin usernames altogether, which some users above consider to be sine qua non). NikoSilver 14:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think my proposal above almost emulates (indirectly) your required result, with only the history-pages left partly unsolved. (The latter could be solved also if the user number is also included as Bastique said would probably happen). You'll have a Latin username to refer to, to type and locate a user, and a way to call them. What do you say? NikoSilver 15:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Retroactive?

I just noticed a large number of retroactive username blocks, mostly for usernames created in early 2006. Has there been a recent change in the username policy that explains this?--VectorPotentialTalk 13:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What kind of names are you talking about? -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Email addresses mostly, but I think I figured out why. Someone just reported a few dozen of these to UAA without indicating that they were created in early 2006. The only reason it even occured to me to double check these against the usercreation log is because usernames with the @ symbol have been blacklisted by the software since 2006, so they couldn't possibly have been created recently--VectorPotentialTalk 13:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I dont think that email addresses were a recent addition to the policy. That being said, I also know that they have not always been part of it so it could be that somebody just had some time on their hands and decided to peruse all usernames looking for violations? WHo knows. We should all spend more time writing articles. -- Chrislk02 (Chris Kreider) 13:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
E-mail names created before the rule are exempt from it. Unless the rule is to prevent bad faith names, we normally do not retroactively enforce username rules. (H) 13:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Numbers

Numbers don't fall into WP:U unless the username has long random numbers. Certain numbers however, can be offensive. I think we should include numbers such as 88, 666, and 69 into the policy. Thoughts? ~ Wikihermit 00:12, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are already clauses for racist usernames, and usernames that may cause offence. 88 can be tricky, because it could be just a number, or it could refer to the racist org (I forget the details now) but it requires other evidence to make a decision. 666 is tricky; some people clearly find it offensive but others think it's daft to be offended by a number - but policy is clear "may cause offence" and 666 "may cause offence". I was born in 1969. I agree that numbers could be tricky, but I think they're already covered in the policy. Maybe a change in the examples given in policy to cover troublesome numbers? Dan Beale 09:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Character names and other names taken from copyrighted works

I see above that there has been discussion of character names before, such as Captain America. My user name is also a character name, as someone pointed out to me recently. I'd like to check here what the current stance on this is. I've been browsing through random user names and admins, and found a few examples of character names. It wasn't something I thought of when creating my user name over 2 years ago (I was thinking then of something distinctive, yet still informative about me and my interests), but times change and I wonder what people think of this now? Note that a distinction probably needs to be made between works out of copyright, and those still under copyright, and between trademarked names and non-trademarked names. Also, this wouldn't just be about character names, as people also take on place names from books and films as well. Carcharoth 10:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You have nothing to worry about. Company, and to a lesser extent, charachter, names are only usually blocked if they are promotional in nature. GDonato (talk) 15:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a lawyer, but as far as I'm aware there's no legal issue. --Deskana (talk) 15:11, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Using names from copyrighted works is not a legal problem, unless such names are trademarked (which, incidentally, most of them aren't). >Radiant< 16:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Almost any realistic name (i.e. "Thomas Claire", not superhero or sci-fi alien names) has probably been the name of a character in some novel or other, so it wouldn't be a practical rule to enforce. Also very difficult to prove that it wasn't the person's real name. --tjstrf talk 16:28, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Length of names

The softwae has a hard limit on the length of usernames. Does there need to be a vague, undefined, soft limit on usernames mentioned in policy? Dan Beale 11:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • That name is already covered by # Usernames that consist of a lengthy or apparently random sequence of characters, e.g. "aaaaaaaaaaaa" or "ghfjkghdfjgkdhfjkg". So why do we need # Usernames that are extremely lengthy, e.g. "Super Ultra Mege Bob of Waverly Drive from Mars146366".' - especially as the example isn't (apparently) possible with current wiki software? Dan Beale 17:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'd like to point out that I registered Super Ultra Mege Bob of Waverly Drive from Mars146366 (talk · contribs) just the other day. Quite possible to do (I logged out before creating the account, so there's no way my being an admin could have had an effect). EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm sure I saw someone saying somewhere that there was now a 50 character limit on usernames. I can't remember where. If you managed to register SUMBoWDfM146366 the person saying it must be wrong. I'll try to find a diff. Dan Beale 23:52, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • I misread an entire conversation, especially a small comment in it. The software has changed to allow sigs of 255 chars. Someone said "AFAIK there's a 50 char limit on usernames" - which is obviously wrong. clicky linky — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanBeale (talk • contribs)

There are, however, existing users who have rather lengthy user names: as many as 7 or 8 distinct words. Exploding Boy 17:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • I believe we could simply strike the point from the policy. Indeed, we seem to be quite accepting of e.g. The Prophet Wizard Of The Crayon Cake, or of Can't Sleep Clown Will Eat Me. >Radiant< 08:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Names that don't begin with a letter or number

Such as .x.princess4eva.x., a username I noticed was just created. The ".x." seems to be purely decorative. Exploding Boy 17:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing in policy that states that these aren't allowed (I'm guess that's why you brought it here), and there's no reason why they shouldn't be allowed - they're not hurting anyone. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know they're not hurting anyone. I'm just concerned about the potential for confusion with a period at the beginning of a name (or an underscore, for example). Exploding Boy 19:38, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Software blocks names like that. GDonato (talk) 19:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I see what you mean, I'm not sure how the software would handle a username with an underscore as the first character. The major problems comes with templates, for example, a username such as _()(&*'-_@}} (Yeah, I know we wouldn't allow this because of random characters - I'm just using it as an example!) would no doubt screw up this template - {{Userlinks|_()(&*'-_@}}. There is a magic trick, which means that any characters can be used at any point within a template, you simple put 1= before the username and the templates work fine. So, for our example username, here you have it... _()(&*'-_@ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)! Ryan Postlethwaite 19:45, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, by the looks of things, underscores at the start of a name screw it all up still, but as GDonato pointed out about - they're software blocked. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see the issue with such names, you can have decorative elements to your name as far as I know. (H) 19:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Okidoki. Exploding Boy 19:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, no issue here. I can't imagine these being confusing, either... if anything, they help avoid confusing situations. Mangojuicetalk 20:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Usernames created with an underscore as the first character

Hmmmm, I just created the _Ryan Post username. The software automatically created Ryan Post (minus the underscore), wouldn't it better for the software to completely block all usernames starting with an underscore than to generate a new one for a user? Ryan Postlethwaite 23:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Linking to WP:SPA

WP:SPA is an unofficial essay, unapproved by Wikipedia, but it is frequently touted as Wikipedia policy. One reason people may think it is officially confirmed by Wikipedia is the fact that official WP policy links to it. My proposal is to not allow WP policy pages to link to essays without an explanation as to what the difference between an essay and policy is, even though it's displayed on the essay's page, or to not allow the link at all. Having a link to an essay from WP policy condones it, when, in reality, an essay has been approved by "the few". - JNighthawk 02:16, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest going to WT:POLICY if you have a problem with linking policy pages to essay page and try and get a consensus there. As it happens, the essay you quote is a very neutral essay and helps to understand what the policy is trying to talk about, in my opinion, it is best to leave it in. Ryan Postlethwaite 02:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'd suggest as a better option simply merging that page here. The concept is explained quite well on this page, imho, and doesn't need a three-page rant. >Radiant< 08:12, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing flagrantly wrong with WP:SPA, but the idea of merging an essay into policy... maybe after there's been a full discussion. - JNighthawk 13:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The parts of it that are enforced are already de facto policy and could be listed here. The parts that are not are pretty much irrelevant anyway. >Radiant< 13:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And that's the problem. People are "enforcing" an essay. It's not WP policy, it's merely one or a few editors' opinions. - JNighthawk 02:00, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but you can't solve that problem by hiding the essay. Rather, perhaps this actual policy page should be clarified. Also, if admins are making wrongful blocks based upon whatever, please drop a note at WP:ANI. >Radiant< 09:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. I had assumed that it wasn't supposed to be there, because it really doesn't make sense to me for official WP policy to be linking to unofficial essays as if it were a part of the policy. While I don't have a problem with WP:SPA per se, I've seen far too many abuses to new users at the hands of editors and admins claiming SPA. - JNighthawk 13:11, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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