The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Duma arson attack#Ya'alon on Jewish extremists (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Settleman (talk · contribs)
• Pluto2012 (talk · contribs)
• Nableezy (talk · contribs)
• Nishidani (talk · contribs)
• Huldra (talk · contribs)
• Igorp_lj (talk · contribs)
• Balckagaming (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have added this "Ya'alon said... and mentioned that "It is necessary to know that most of those extreme right wing activists are not residents of Judea and Samaria and they definitely don't represent the settler-communities over there."^[1]" which is based on this offline newspaper. It is straight forward WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NOR etc'. Users objected it for various reasons like undue and irrelevant. UNDUE argument was abandoned and now the main complaint is it is irrelevant b/c it is a general statement, meaning he speaks in general about attacks on Palestinians. I can't see what policy this argument is based.

In addition, the article contains two general statements 'manual of incitement' and UN stats about 'settlers violence' but when a statement of Defense Minister Yaalon from a briefing about the attack was added, it was removed because it is a 'general statement'. Even if 'general' is somehow a reason to leave material out, I can't see any reason for the difference except for personal POV. Included

• A manual of incitement written by Moshe Orbach, an Israeli from Bnai Brak, entitled “Kingdom of Evil,” which provides details on how to set fire to mosques, churches and Palestinian homes, has also been mentioned in connection with the Duma attack.^[2]
• According to the UN, since the beginning of 2015 at least 120 settler attacks have been documented in West Bank, and Yesh Din statistics suggest over 92.6% of Palestinian complaints lodged with Israeli security forces never led to charges being filed.^[3]

In the attack Jewish extremists are suspected by most including the Israeli authorities. this makes the statistics source from Al-Jazeera not just general but irrelevant (extremists≠settlers). The second one about 'manual of incitement' may or may not actually connected but if we allow general information, it should be in. But Ya'alon statement was said in a briefing about investigation progress. It is general since they don't know the identity of the attackers.

All my request for a reasonable explanation for the difference were dodged which is why I am taking the very long route to DRN. Settleman (talk) 18:16, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

Lengthy discussion on the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

A few sets of fresh eyes can help involved parties (all with strong POV on Israel-Palestine conflict) to determine whether all or some of the three statements should or shouldn't be included. I have failed to get a straight answer as for what is the difference and why anti-Israel statements belong and opposing statements don't.

Summary of dispute by Pluto2012

• Comment - FYI : a similar issue based on complaint against Nishidani's behaviour was raised by Settleman on wp:an/I 10 days ago and the long discussion leads to a WP:BOOMERANG and mentorship proposal for Settleman to which he hasn't answered whereas he keeps editing numerous articles and whereas he opened this WP:DRN. Settleman also raised similar comments (content, behaviour) on the at ArbCom. The content isse was discussed at length in the talk page with several points kept unanswered by Settleman. All this is just Wikipedia:Forumshop. There is no reason to start discussing here until the WP:AN/I case is closed. It is up to Settleman to decide if he agrees the mentorship. Pluto2012 (talk) 06:06, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of dispute by Nableezy

A reliable source specifically links the material that Settleman objects to, using this incident as an example of a wider pattern. The material by the Israeli defense minister however isnt about this attack, he is making a general statement about most extremist right wing Jews not being settlers, but not saying that the arsonists are not settlers. The pertinent part of his statement, that the attack hurt the position of the settlers, is already included in the article. nableezy - 16:23, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of dispute by Nishidani

This has been discussed exhaustively on the talk page. It is a matter of a straightforward construal of English grammar, which does not allow the inference that Settleman and Igorp, both non-native speakers, lend to Ya'alon's statement. I always find quoting politicians in a murder case ridiculously unencyclopedic. Our job as editors, unlike politicians, is not to comfort or absolve constituencies, but to provide them with facts. I would abolish were I a dictator all 'Reactions' comments from Wikipedia articles. One should stick to the key elements of the mystery. Don't take this as a willingness to participate here, but simply as a courtesy note in response to the query on my page.Nishidani (talk) 11:20, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of dispute by Huldra

I agree with Nableezy: "The material by the Israeli defense minister however isnt about this attack, he is making a general statement about most extremist right wing Jews not being settlers, but not saying that the arsonists are not settlers." To me what Moshe Ya'alon says here, sounds more like "wishful thinking", especially when the people named in relation to this attack happens to be settlers. Huldra (talk) 23:59, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of dispute by Igorp_lj

Let's see what current revision^[4] does include, noting that even for such minor edit as "immediately suspected Jews <= Jewish settlers", some editors insist ("They didn't suspect Jews, as a whole, but Jewish settlers, of course"; "sources say settlers") on settlers' blaming, despite a fact that already existed RS prove the opposite:

• J. arsonits/extremists + "settler terrorism" @Arikat [11] NYT
• attack/radicals/settlers/assailants [19] (Daraghmeh+)
• terror/violence/extremists/militants [20] ("They tend to reject authority, including the mainstream settler movement leadership")
• extremists/terrorists[21] (Dubai)
• extremists/terrorists[22] (Harkov)

and so on:

• the flagship of the ideological settler movement (regarding to another incident: "That same Monday night, July 27, rioting broke out at the settlement of Beit El, considered the flagship of the ideological settler movement") [20][24]
• at least 120 settler attacks have been documented [38] (AJ based on Yesh Din's data)
• to extend to Palestinian victims of Jewish terrorism [36]; Jewish terror[29]

Here's a POV, what is mainly represented in the current version of article.
Unfortunately, for some editors, such words as 'settler', an entire spectrum of the Israeli right-wing media and NGOs sound like curses. And this concerns not only settlers. It comes to a ridiculous: for some editor, a journalist, writing for many RS, isn't RS because she works in [Sderot], as well as PhD (International Politics) - because he doesn't work for "proper" media, and the 3rd - because he is "The National board chairman of the ZOA (so ?) and "a clinical professor...",
but "his" some anonymous & Rotem - an "Israeli activist, high-tech executive and author of the blog" - is RS. His

• "we use sources that give facts, with linkable and verifiable sources which Rotem / Brown provide"

what isn't correct : their "facts" based mainly on +972 links itself & on a sister's Mekomit, and rarely - on B'tselem+ data.

It'd OK, if it remains as their POV only, but they work hard to prevent access to Wikipedia of any info with which they disagree. Actually, they just hurt Wiki, making it not RS when remain in it what doesn't represent a real information about what happens in Israel and in the region as a whole.

That's why I consider it's necessary to return to the article not only Makor Rishon's information^[1], but the folowing one from Arutz Sheva confirmed by Hebrew sources:

• "Yaalon ... noted that the suspects are not at all connected to Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria - or even to the so-called "Price Tag" movement."

P.S. It's interesting what will say same editors when I add to the article the following Ben-Dror Yemini's opinion: ) :)

117 events didn’t turn Netherlands into a racist country. With us, a much smaller number of events leads to countless articles about a violent and racist society.
The nationalist-religious tribe has absorbed the majority of criticism regarding the rise of nationalistic extremism. But the attempt to connect the “price tag” (the name given to certain acts of vandalism aimed at Palestinians by Jewish nationalists) hooligans, or the ones responsible for the two aforementioned murders, to the wider religious public is tenuous.

P.P.S Nableezy's "Every single other person to comment on this ... has agreed that Yaalon's statement on extremist right wing Jews is not is relevant" - isn't correct. See my: "In fact, all sources say the same things, the only difference is what they do present, depending ... on its orientation" (23:30, 11 September 2015) Sorry, more than 2k. :( --Igorp_lj (talk) 09:08, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Duma arson attack#Ya'alon on Jewish extremists discussion

• Volunteer note - There has been considerable discussion on the article talk page for more than a week. It appears that the primary issue is whether a statement by the Israeli Defense Minister should be included in the article. In view of the length of the discussion and the number of parties, concise summaries of the dispute by the parties would be very helpful. Please comment on content, not contributors. (Remember that disruptive editing is subject to discretionary sanctions under WP:ARBPIA.) I am neither accepting nor declining this case. We are waiting for concise summaries of the dispute from the other editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:18, 22 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Accepted as primarily focus for DRN case for now. --JustBerry (talk) 22:48, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

•  Note to participants: Also, please make your summaries specific to what the core issue is and the precise locations of the dispute. --JustBerry (talk) 02:10, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
•  Question: @Settleman: What exactly do you mean by "generic" or "generic information" in your case summary? Also, please clarify "It is generic since they don't know the identity of the attackers." Thirdly, to clarify, are you objecting to the material included or only to the exclusion of the statement you provided in your case summary? --JustBerry (talk) 21:21, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Volunteer - Please answer the request for clarification, don't shift and deflect it. Nableezy has only argued on the grounds of "general statement" not "generic" which are your own words for we-don't-know-what, hence JustBerry's request for you to clarify. Drcrazy102 (talk) 17:19, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have changed all 'generic' to 'general'. I can't see how a general statement said by the highest authority for the investigation does not belong. What policy is it based on? Even worse, other general information mentioned by biased sources gets in. So I would like other party to answer directly (1) what policy is the base of Ya'alon removal? (2) If 'general' (which isn't a policy) is enough to remove Ya'alon, why are the other two statement included? Settleman (talk) 11:07, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

•  Question: @Nableezy: You mention "using this incident as an example of a wider pattern." Can you elaborate on what exactly you mean? --JustBerry (talk) 21:21, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
•  To DRN volunteers: Discussion is open, but further clarification is being requested to demystify the content issue. Any other volunteers should feel free to ask clarification questions or make comments on case observations as they see fit. --JustBerry (talk) 21:21, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
•  Question: -  To DRN volunteers: - Following the revelation of several Admin-related cases being open around Settleman et al., should this discussion be kept open or have the related cases been resolved? Currently working from my phone or I would check further myself. Thanks Drcrazy102 (talk) 08:56, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Withdrawing question: Admin-related cases are either not related or have been informally resolved. The Workshop Proposals by Settleman are not directly related, only tangentially, and do not impgune on either content or behaviour as otherwise suggested; the section Incidents#Proposed_WP:BOOMERANG_for_User:Settleman has been informally resolved (ATM) here (on AN/I) and here (on Settleman's Talk Page). Apologies for hassle, phone hates me ATM. Thanks go to JustBerry for helping me here. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 01:40, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

•  Resolved No worries. --JustBerry (talk) 01:46, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

•  To DRN volunteers: @Drcrazy102: Since the dispute is truly content-based, it is not a bad idea to continue the DRN discussion further. --JustBerry (talk) 16:23, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
•  Checking... @Drcrazy102: Considering the additional case summaries that have come in, I will check to see if this particular dispute has already been addressed elsewhere conclusively. --JustBerry (talk) 16:27, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
•  Likely to continue discussion. --JustBerry (talk) 21:19, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed - have finely gotten laptop back up and running, checked the pages and they have been mostly resolved or are not related. See above for further comments. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 01:40, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Nishidani: Ya'alon isn't just 'a politician', he is Minister of Defense which makes him involved in the investigation. It was said during briefing to reporters specifically about the investigation. Settleman (talk) 11:35, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Pluto2012, Nableezy, Nishidani, Huldra, and Igorp lj: Pinging for discussion. Right now, seems  Inconclusive. --JustBerry (talk) 21:43, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

 Inconclusive ?

I may only remind that Yaalon's words about settlers do have been said just during his statement about the arson's investigation:

"In a briefing to reporters at the HaKirya minister of defense said the arson attack hurt the state of Israel and the settlement community in particular. He noted that "there was a actual condemnation from settlers leaders to the attack, but we need to know most of those extreme right wingers are not residents of Judea and Samaria, and certainly do not represent the settlement communities over there." I hope this clarify the fact he said it directly about the attack and not in a political convention. Settleman (talk) 18:58, 15 September 2015 ^[1]

So such Nableezy & Huldra's claim as "The material by the Israeli defense minister however isnt about this attack" simply isn't correct. --Igorp_lj (talk) 14:51, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mark Miller: Pinging for additional weigh-in for case, esp. new evidence. --JustBerry (talk) 17:36, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Let me look but, off hand, it appears that only one of the participants is for inclusion and the rest are against it. The source looks like a blog run by a single person but not clear.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:44, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• "only one of the participants" (@Mark Miller:) as min two: me & @Settleman:.
• "a blog run by a single person" - pls, check Makor Rishon and our arguments. --Igorp_lj (talk) 19:18, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The info appeared on several papers in Hebrew as I mentioned on the talk page. ALL involved editors in this conversation have strong bias on way or another so the numbers are important but rather the POV of an objective reader/editor. Settleman (talk) 19:23, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have reviewed the above sources presented here and none of them cover the claims or the quote.--Mark Miller (talk) 17:20, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Igorp lj. I was not clear on what side you fell. I need you to link to the actual article at the online newspaper below my reply. Then I need you to direct me to where it shows the writing staff, the editorial board etc. At last I saw, this was in bankruptcy. Who own the publication now and who is running the online site? Remember that to demonstrate that the source is reliable you must show how the summary is supported by the source, that the publisher is reliable, with editorial oversight and that the author has expertise in the area. next, the context of the information is important as well. Each one of these criteria effect the reliability of the source.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:58, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The paper does not have an online version though some of it's articles are published on Nrg Maariv. It seems to be owned by Israel Hayom, Israel's most circulated paper, now. For current news it is as reliable as other daily papers.

The text I wish to include is a short quote of Ya'alon from the article so there is nothing to confirm but the translation. Settleman (talk) 21:44, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All references must be available to access. If this was only published online and that article is no longer there and verifiable, it may not be used as a source.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:07, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The construal of what 'those' in 'those extreme right wingers are not residents of Judea and Samaria' was made by Nableezy on the talk page. English is his native language and I refer mediators to that discussion. Any number of sources will inform the interested that a large number of extremist settlers are known to live in specific West Bank settlements (Noam Federman, Baruch Marzel at Tel Rumeida, the Od Yosef Chai yeshiva at Yitzhar, Bat Ayin, Yitzchak Ginsburgh etc etc etc. Many scholars would argue as had Amos N. Guiora, Professor of Law at the University of Utah, in his Freedom from Religion: Rights and National Security, (Oxford University Press, 2013 p.96) that 'those extremists are becoming the contemporary face, voice and leadership of the settler movement'. In that context Ya'alon can be read as flying in the face of certain realities, analysed in numerous books, from Ian Lustick's For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, (Foreign Relations Council 1998)onwards and might be thought to be saying 'the extremists who killed the Palestinian family' (he knows who they are but can't arrest them probably because one of the group is an infiltrated government agent present at the scene, according to leaks) are not in the West Bank, implying however that other extremists are, but, they did not perpetrate this particular killing. Settleman is taking this as a necessary exculpation of the settler movement in general as non-violent. That's one of the major driving points of his presence on Wikipedia, to give the settler perspective. The last implication is not necessarily what Ya'alon is saying, in any case. With a statement so oblique and obscure, and evidently spoken to placate anxieties among Ya'alon's political constituency in the West Bank, such ambiguous and primarily ritual waffle is wholly pointless and obscurantist for an encyclopedic article that should focus on the facts, not on political blague.Nishidani (talk) 22:26, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In an article having statistics on 'settler violence' before the facts are known, a quote saying "wait a minute, these people don't represent a community of over half million people" is simple WP:BALANCE. I have added a short quote not a statement and it isn't the job of any one editor to decides/he doesn't like it. Me giving 'the settler perspective' is neccessary when other editors are focus on anti-settler, anti-Israel and anti-******** prospectives. How will WP ever reach neutrality if only one is present? Settleman (talk) 07:49, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

'Me giving 'the settler perspective' is neccessary when other editors are focus on anti-settler, anti-Israel and anti-******** prospectives. '

The asterisks imply 'anti-Semitism' and the whole line, read in the context of this edit attributing to me the desire 'to smear Israel' (retracted at my request only to be repeated here as a generalization regarding all editors he disagrees with, is one reason why this dispute resolution process is futile. Any editor who comes to Wikipedia and begins dismissing experienced editors who disagree on specifics as 'anti-Israel' and 'anti-********(Semitic) has a battleground POV so deep that arguing with it is pointless.Nishidani (talk) 12:17, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is the source "questionable"?

According to WP:BURDEN:

"All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution.^[1]"

References

1. ^ Once an editor has provided any source that he or she believes, in good faith, to be sufficient, then any editor who later removes the material has an obligation to articulate specific problems that would justify its exclusion from Wikipedia (e.g., undue emphasis on a minor point, unencyclopedic content, etc.). All editors are then expected to help achieve consensus, and any problems with the text or sourcing should be fixed before the material is added back.

and per WP:NOTRS:

Questionable sources are those that have a poor reputation for checking the facts, lack meaningful editorial oversight, or have an apparent conflict of interest.^[1]

Such sources include websites and publications expressing views that are widely considered by other sources to be extremist or promotional, or that rely heavily on unsubstantiated gossip, rumor or personal opinion. Questionable sources should only be used as sources of material on themselves, especially in articles about themselves; see below. They are not suitable sources for contentious claims about others.

References

1. ^ Sources that may have interests other than professional considerations in the matter being reported are considered to be conflicted sources. Further examples of sources with conflicts of interest include but are not limited to articles by any media group that promote the holding company of the media group or discredit its competitors; news reports by journalists having financial interests in the companies being reported or in their competitors; material (including but not limited to news reports, books, articles and other publications) involved in or struck down by litigation in any country, or released by parties involved in litigation against other involved parties, during, before or after the litigation; and promotional material released through media in the form of paid news reports. For definitions of sources with conflict of interest:
   • The Columbia Center for New Media Teaching and Learning, Columbia University mentions: "A conflict of interest involves the abuse – actual, apparent, or potential – of the trust that people have in professionals. The simplest working definition states: A conflict of interest is a situation in which financial or other personal considerations have the potential to compromise or bias professional judgment and objectivity. An apparent conflict of interest is one in which a reasonable person would think that the professional's judgment is likely to be compromised. A potential conflict of interest involves a situation that may develop into an actual conflict of interest. It is important to note that a conflict of interest exists whether or not decisions are affected by a personal interest; a conflict of interest implies only the potential for bias, not a likelihood. It is also important to note that a conflict of interest is not considered misconduct in research, since the definition for misconduct is currently limited to fabrication, falsification, and plagiarism."
   • The New York Times Company forwards this understanding: "Conflicts of interest, real or apparent, may come up in many areas. They may involve the relationships of staff members with readers, news sources, advocacy groups, advertisers, or competitors; with one another, or with the newspaper or its parent company. And at a time when two-career families are the norm, the civic and professional activities of spouses, family and companions can create conflicts or the appearance of conflicts."

It appears to me that the reference has no author information, the online article is no longer online with no known offline printed publication, the source when printed seems to fit that of a tabloid and does appear to fulfill some of the criteria for being questionable even if the article itself is found.

I'd like to hear from both editors as to why they think this passes criteria for use please.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:22, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Look, not every dispute needs much discussion if one cannot demonstrate within Wikipedia policy and guidelines exactly how they have proven their burden. It is the opinion of this volunteer that this dispute is not validated as the burden of evidence has not been met. I request the input of other volunteers. It is my opinion that there is no reliable source to verify this content and that it must be excluded on that basis. It is the opinion of the volunteer that the arguments against inclusion are the rough consensus of editors. If no other opinions by a volunteer disagree, I am ready to close this dispute as resolved as the burden of evidence has not been met.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:19, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How are you closing this on RS ground when the sides didn't even bring it up as an issue??? I can't see how it fails WP:NEWSORG. Makor Rishon is an OFFLINE newspaper held by the same publisher of Israel Hayom. The article in question was PRINTED in it and cannot be found online. For an article about a current event, an 18 years old newspaper should be more than acceptable. Settleman (talk) 07:39, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I am closing because a rough consensus already exists to exclude the content. That alone is enough to close a DRN request; when a consensus exists. The truth is, there was already a consensus on the talk. The same editors agreeing to exclude for various reasons and two editors supporting inclusion. You admit the online source is no longer online and are not sure if it is archived or not. That really does come down to not being able to fulfill the burden criteria. Wikipedia does not require that sources be online. They may be offline, book and journal sources, but we do require that online sources be accessible. It must be able to be accessed to be verified, even if it requires a paywall or purchase of a book etc. It isn't about the content. It is about the ability to cite a reference to make the claim. That's just WP:V. It may be something else others may not have mentioned but: " All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed. Please remove contentious material about living people that is unsourced or poorly sourced immediately." The two supporting editors have not been able to convince the others based on the merits of the content but, just because no mention of policy has been used, does not mean there are no real violations that must be addressed. Violation of the WP:V and WP:BLP. The source does not meet referencing standards to verify it. That is one issue, but it also lacks authorship, which alone weakens the source. I could go on, but the point is, a rough consensus already existed and burden has truly not been met. Besides all that, it is an exceptional claim and a BLP issue which requires multiple strong sources. This falls very short of that.--Mark Miller (talk) 17:05, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Evangelos Zappas#Aromanian origin (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)
• Konstantinos Zappas (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (This article was added by DRN volunteer, Mark Miller, as pertaining to the same dispute)

Users involved

• Rolandi+ (talk · contribs)
• Umpire Empire (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There are two theories about the origin of Evangelos Zappas.One theory says he was of Greek origin why another theory says he was of Aromanian origin.These two theories are supported by many reliable references.Umpire Empire continue deleting the Aromanian theory.Firstly he said that Aromanians (Vlachs) are in fact Romanian-speaking Greeks (a "theory" created by Umpire Empire and not supported by any reliable scholar).After that he claimed that the Aromanian origin is a Fringe theory.The problem is that this user doesn't have any source supporting his claim.This user continues deleting the Aromanian theory and this doesn't help Wikipedia to be a neutral place.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I have used the talk page.

How do you think we can help?

By adding all well-sourced theories in the article.

Summary of dispute by Umpire Empire

At the Evangelos Zappas entry, Rolandi+ submitted three sources that, in passing, mention Zappas as a "Vlach" (very broad term applied to different groups) or an "Aromanian" with no biographical evidence to support the labels. In fact, all three sources fail to meet the rigorous standards of WP:RS. In the article, the mainstream/specialist sources that specifically focus on Zappas and the modern Olympics all classify Zappas as a Greek (there is no "Aromanian theory" espoused by mainstream/specialist scholars because there are no hard facts to support one). Umpire Empire (talk) 18:51, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Evangelos Zappas#Aromanian_origin discussion

•  Note to participants: @Rolandi+: Please note that it is not the duty of DRN volunteers to add content to articles, rather to resolve the dispute at hand and arrive at a conclusion or resolution of some form. --JustBerry (talk) 15:28, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
•  Question: @Rolandi+: It appears that the evaluation of reliable sources seems to be part of the problem here. Besides the three sources you have provided on the article talk page for substantiating your claim, can you provide reliable biographical evidence proving his Aromanian origin? To clarify, the sources should not merely make references to his Aromanian origin. --JustBerry (talk) 21:25, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
•  To DRN volunteers: Although the discussion is open for contribution by DRN volunteers, the question above is seeking further clarification from an involved party prior to making a fuller evaluation of the situation at hand. However, in the meantime, feel free to note any observations. --JustBerry (talk) 21:34, 23 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
•  Note to participants: If both are theories and both have credible sources would it not be appropriate to simply include information about both theories in the article and let the reader decide which one(s) to research? Wiki-Impartial (talk) 13:39, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
•  To DRN volunteers: @Wiki-Impartial: It could. Perhaps the situation can marked as resolved with the conclusion of including information about both theories after Rolandi+'s clarification to the question above. Discussing the rationale may be important to evaluate the credibility of the theory in question. --JustBerry (talk) 16:21, 25 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• @JustBerry: Firstly my sources are mainstream scholars and you can easily verify it.Secondly vlachs in Albania and Greece are called "Aromanians".Umpire Emipre says that he uses only "mainstream" scholars as reference for his claims,but there is no mainstream scholar in this world who says that vlachs are greeks!

As all sources referring to his origin (greek or aromanian) don't give an detailed biography the best thing to do is to include all theories in the article.In fact Labove e Madhe (the village where he was born) is inhabitated only by Albanians and Vlachs and the Romanian government finances an Aromanian educative center in the village.There is no greek school or anything else in this village.As Wikipedia needs to be neutral,including both theories in the article is the best choice.Rolandi+ (talk) 10:23, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

•  Note to participants: @Rolandi+: Can you explain how an Aromanian educative center makes a person Aromanian necessarily? Do you have sources that point to him identifying himself as Aromanian or that part of his family identified themselves as/were Aromanian? Although it is important to include multiple perspectives, it is also important to give due weight to a particular perspective. A probable compromise might be including information on his attendance to an Aromanian educative center, as you pointed out in your last comment, instead of making the claim that he himself is Aromanian. --JustBerry (talk) 22:44, 26 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Aloha. I'm Mark Miller (formerly Amadscientist) a volunteer here at the DRN. While it appears many of the requirements for accepting disputes have been met, the one issue I feel strongly about is the lack of extensive discussion. A cursory glance at the dispute seems to center around what the original text in a biographical article that involves the modern Olympics as well as the ethnic identity of the subject, Evangelos Zappas. The text involved is: "Evangelis Zappas was born of Greek or Aromanian ancestry". Aromanians have a specific origin. What the sources seem to be saying, and what appears to be the basis for the claim of Aromanian ancestry is a term used in the sources; "Vlachs". Here is the issue, the term is widespread; this term is sometimes used outside Greece to encompass all Latin-descended peoples of the Balkans, including the modern-day Romanians. Vlach is a blanket term covering several modern Latin peoples descending from the Latinized population of the Balkans So, it appears that this is saying he either was or was not Greek by a broad concept term repeated but not clearly defined as Aromanian, an ethnic group that should be clearly defined by a strict criteria dependent on genealogy and/or ancestry.

I have some concerns about the way the discussion got off and I can see why editors may be unwilling to interact, but I encourage editors to restart the discussion back at the talk page of the article. I think there needs to be far more calm, collaborative discussion here.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:51, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• @JustBerry: Vlachs in the northern Greece and in the southern Albania are called and self-identified as "Aromanians".(However if the other editors think that using the word "Vlach" is more correct I am ready to use the word "Vlach") Vlachs are an ethnic group different from the greeks so including the Aromanian theory is needed to keep the neutrality.Aromanians are an ethnic group,not just an cultural community.This way we need to include his ethnic origin in the article (Greek and Aromanian theories),not informations on his attendance to an particular educative center.Rolandi+ (talk) 15:38, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

First, we must be sure how the sources are using the term and why. Then we must determine if the subject falls within that ethnic background. Just because a source calls a person a "Vlach" does not mean they are not Greek. However...and this is important, we must be confident that the "theory" (sorry for the scare quotes. I use them to emphasize this is not my term) is a part of the current, main stream, academic consensus. Then, if it is, how much weight to give is determined by how much weight is given to the claim by academia in general. If this is determined to be fringe theory it would get no coverage in the article. If it is simply not widespread within academic circles, then it must be handled with due weight in our text on Wikipedia (that can differ depending on the strength of the multiple sources). Let us also be clear. Claiming that the founder of the modern Olympic Games is not Greek, is an exceptional claim and requires, not just multiple sources...but multiple strong sources. In my opinion the term used to add the claim to the article from the sources are not enough to make a claim such as this, due to the inconsistent definition of the term "Vlach". Sources would have to specifically call the subject "Aromanian" for the text to claim such and if the claim of just the term is not agreed upon by experts, then we have to decide what due weight, if any, to give the information.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:37, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh and one other thing all editors must be aware of is our BLP policy regarding groups of people (WP:BLPGROUP). In this case we are challenging the ancestry of an entire line that may well have living members today. We must remember to use sensitivity.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:05, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

•  Question: @Umpire Empire: Would you like to comment on the case? --JustBerry (talk) 20:52, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
•  To DRN volunteers: It should be noted that this user has not contributed to Wikipedia for approximately five days now. Looking at their previous editing history, it may take some time to get a response from the user. --JustBerry (talk) 20:52, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@JustBerry: Thank you for asking me to comment. So far, you and Mark Miller are managing things well and I commend you both on your efforts towards resolving this dispute. But to keep things brief, I agree with Mark Miller that the claim of Evangelos Zappas being a Vlach and/or Aromanian is an extraordinary claim and that Rolandi+ must submit multiple strong sources to support the claim. I'll say it again, the "sources" (i.e., Kaphetzopoulos, Smerlas, Thomopoulos) submitted by Rolandi+ are unreliable because they provide zero biographical/historical facts to support classifying Zappas as a Vlach and/or an Aromanian. For an Aromanian and/or Vlach origin to be included in the entry, the burden of proof lies with Rolandi+ where the user must submit sources that meet WP:RS (among other Wikipedia policies) or at least meet the following basic criteria: 1) sources must be reliable and impartial (i.e., statements supported by historical facts and hard evidence), 2) sources must be from scholarly experts who focus and specifically study Evangelos Zappas and the modern Olympics, 3) sources cannot contain self-contradictory information where source X, for example, claims that Zappas is ethnically Greek on one page and then claims that he is ethnically Romanian on a separate page. I hope this helps. Umpire Empire (talk) 22:34, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Umpire Empire, lets be fair though, the information was sourced and the sources seem to be from reliable authors and publishers. If editors were to agree on the text, those sources would be sufficient to make the claim that the subject was of a "Vlach" (especially if there are multiple sources for just that claim) background, but could not be used to state anything further unless the source is specific. Other sources that claim otherwise or counter that claim can then be used as balance to the claim if existing. I don't believe this is an option here however because it is contentious and controversial to leave that claim by itself. Also, the criteria here for sources are mainstream academic historians/experts and biographers for late historic Greek figures and subjects. It is too narrow to state they must be experts on the subject itself or the modern Olympics. Also, impartial sources are not a requirement. Some biased sources can be the best for factual information and Wikipedia guidelines and policy do not exclude based on impartiality of the source. I do think if a source contradicts itself, it may not be getting proper editorial oversight, so that may be a real issue.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:57, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mark Miller: I respect your impartiality, but your statement that the aforementioned sources are from mainstream/reliable publishers is actually incorrect: 1) ABC-CLIO/Greenwood is hit or miss as far as tertiary sources go and definitely miss when compared to the reputable secondary sources already in the entry, 2) the Greek Ministry of Press and Mass Media is a government agency and not an organization qualified in researching and composing a sober history of Zappas and the modern Olympics, 3) the Hellenic Army History Directorate is great for Northern Epirus and even military history, but not for the specific history of the modern Olympics and its founder. So however you interpret Rolandi+'s sources, there is one fact that remains indisputable: Zappas being of Vlach and/or Aromanian origin has no echo in mainstream/specialist scholarship and reputable publications, because the long-established consensus among serious scholars, based on actual history, is that Zappas was a Greek. So to be truly fair, none of these publishers are reliable when compared to the reputable and impartial mainstream publishing houses already in the entry such as University of Nebraska Press, University of Utah Press, Manchester University Press, Presses Université Laval, etc. (on the totem pole of reliable sources, the ones in the article are top-notch whereas the ones submitted by Rolandi+ sadly contain misleading/incorrect information). Ultimately, the stringent criteria I mentioned earlier are necessary so as to avoid inserting inaccurate statements in the entry and to avoid frustrating back-and-forth arguments in the future regarding Zappas's origins. Umpire Empire (talk) 14:54, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Mark Miller's assessment above. The dispute seems to be over whether or not Zappas is of Aromanian heritage, not whether he is of Vlach heritage which seems to be supported by the sources provided. If Umpire Empire and Rolandi+ are happy to compromise by putting that Evangelos & Konstantinos Zappas are of Vlach (not specifically of Aromanian) heritage, then reference with the sources (take that aspect to WP:RS/N if it is still not accepted that they are reliable, though I'm sure volunteers here would be happy to help if desired) and everybody gets to walk away with their goals: Umpire succeeds in not having the information of Aromanian heritage put up, and Rolandi gets to put in their alternative information of "not Greek" with proper referencing. Is this agreeable? Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 03:42, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Drcrazy102: I don't mind compromising, but not at the expense of the article's factual accuracy. If Zappas is described as X in a reputable and impartial source containing historically accurate facts, then I'll be the first to insert X into the entry. Umpire Empire (talk) 14:54, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The only issue I see is that the sourced addition of Vlach background still does not appear to exclude being Greek. That is what requires exceptional sourcing. So, presenting this as "Either Greek" or "Or not Greek" may be even more at the heart of this dispute, but I could be wrong.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:51, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mark Miller: You're not wrong Mark in the sense that there's more to this dispute than meets the eye. If you consult the entry's talkpage, you'll sadly see efforts made by questionable users to rewrite history and make Zappas into an ethnic Albanian (see [1], [2]). And now, history must be rewritten again because the flavor of the month is to make Zappas an ethnic Aromanian (whatever that means). The only way for this ludicrous cycle to stop is to enforce strict, or stricter, quality controls (as per WP:RS, WP:V, WP:FRINGE, WP:DUE) when it comes to inserting sources and any information into Balkan-related entries. Umpire Empire (talk) 14:54, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Umpire Empire, Mark Miller, JustBerry, and Rolandi+: Thinking over this further, perhaps a better wording of the contested section would be:

Current: Evangelis Zappas was born of Greek ancestry in 1800 in the village of Labovo, near Tepelenë, (modern Gjirokastër County, Albania), when the region was still under Ottoman rule.

Proposed change: Evangelis Zappas was born in 1800 in the village of Labovo, near Tepelenë, (modern Gjirokastër County, Albania), when the region was still under Ottoman rule.[Sources already there] It is widely accepted that Zappas has Grecian ancestry, though a small minority consider him to have Vlach heritage [See Sources below].

Let me know your thoughts on this. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 00:37, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Drcrazy102: I appreciate your effort, but I disagree with the proposed change since the wording implies that: 1) a small group of mainstream/specialist scholars having studied Zappas and the modern Olympics determined with certainty that Zappas himself was a Vlach/Aromanian and that is simply not the case in reality, 2) there is biographical/historical evidence to support Zappas being of Vlach/Aromanian origin, which is false since all facts and evidence point to Zappas being a Greek. So the insertion of the proposed change would mislead readers and present an historically inaccurate description of the life and career of Zappas. Umpire Empire (talk) 14:00, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

•  To DRN volunteers: _{See below.} and
•  Note to participants: It appears that Rolandi+ also altered the origin of Konstantinos Zappas, a cousin of Evangelos in the same manner. I believe it is in the best interest of the dispute to add that article to this DRN moving forward, as the two subjects are closely related both in genealogy and in modern Greek history.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:42, 28 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• @Mark Miller: Vlachs are not Greeks.In fact a Vlach can not be a greek as Vlachs don't have the same language and the same culture with Greeks.If you see the Vlachs article they don't have any relation to Greeks,Albanians or other Balkan people.Someone who is Vlach is Vlach and can't be called or identified as "Greek".

I agree that using the term "Vlach" instead of "Aromanian" would be perfect.(In fact the Vlachs of Greece and Albania are called and identified as "Aromanians").So the best option would be:"Zappas was of Greek or Vlach origin".Rolandi+ (talk) 12:51, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Is that what the sources claim or are we stitching together two facts to create a new fact...that he was "either-or"? Also, we still need to actually demonstrate that calling the subject Vlach is main stream enough in academia and modern history to be stated as fact, to mention at all or to ad as opinion. The ethnicity of Evangelos Zappas as anything other than Greek has not been demonstrated. There is an editor that has objected to the addition of the content and their argument is consistent to the definitions and content of the articles we have on Wikipedia and the overall definition of the added terms. At the moment, the main concern is that the content may not be factual and could be outside the mainstream. Just exactly how, has also not yet been demonstrated but it is my opinion that calling the subject and his cousin Vlach and Aromanian may not be something that can be demonstrated in sources as fact. A quick Google book search shows no mention of Vlach in the main sources I viewed off hand and the only one source: "About Greece" mentions Vlach from a search adding the term. There may be more somewhere but It is clear this is not mainstream at least. This leads me to believe the claim that this is fringe could well be accurate. Thoughts?--Mark Miller (talk) 20:02, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This leads me to believe the claim that this is fringe could well be accurate. Mark, your impartial conclusion based on the facts is correct and I hope other reasonable users come to the same conclusion. Umpire Empire (talk) 21:28, 29 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

•  Note to participants: and  To DRN volunteers:

I have requested RSN input about the sources, and directed them to post their findings in the below section to help resolve the contention and concerns surrounding the sources' reliability. Please do not edit unless acting in a RSN volunteer role. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk)

RSN Volunteer Findings concerning sources listed by Rolandi+

• Notice to be found on the RS Noticeboard here, with a request for discussion of sources to occur on the DRN page, not the RSN page. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 00:13, 30 September 2015 (UTC); updated 00:37, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Context - (How the sources are used; the claim in the article itself) = "Evangelis Zappas was born of Greek[multiple sources used] or Aromanian[Source 1][source 2][source 3] ancestry..."

• Source (1) = The Greenwoods' Histories of The Modern Nations: The History of Greece - ISBN 978-0-313-37511-8 / EISBN 978-0-313-37512 -5
  • Publisher = Greenwood Publishing Group
  • Author = Elaine Thomopoulos [3] - [4]
  • Claim from the source = "Finally, Evangelis Zappas, a Vlach by descent, took the idea and ran with it, paving the way for the modern Olympics."

• Source (2) = About Greece
  • Publisher = Greek Ministry of Press and Mass Media, Secretariat General of Information, 1999
  • Authors = Pericles Smerlas, George Douskas
  • Claim from the source = "Some of the biggest national benefactors and personalities of the Greek history belong to Vlach families, like Pavlos Melas, Evangelos and Konstantinos Zappas, Stefanos and Ion."

• Source (3) = The struggle for Northern Epirus - ISBN 9607897404 / ISBN 9789607897404
  • Publisher = Hellenic Army General Staff, Army History Directorate, 2000
  • Authors = Ioannis Kaphetzopoulos, Charalambos Flokas, Angeliki Dima-Dimitriou, Hellenic Army General Staff (Greece), Army History Directorate (Greece)
  • Claim from the source = "The Prime Ministers ... were Vlachs. So were the great national benefactors ... Euangelos [sic] and Konstantinos Zappas ..."

Discussion on sources and subject

First of all, I have some concern that the term "Vlach" is misleading and have been uncomfortable with its use. According to "Ethnic Groups of Europe: An Encyclopedia: An Encyclopedia", edited by Jeffrey E. Cole the term Vlachs is a pejorative term meaning an "outsider" or "shepherd". This source also states that Aromanians are not recorded as a separate ethnic group. In fact it is not clear if Aromanians are a separate ethnic group.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:47, 30 September 2015 (UTC) The three sources seem too weak to state as a fact that the subject is Vlach or Aromanian. The first one is the strongest as it is from a reputable publisher with editorial oversight, however the author does not appear to be an expert in the field but a freelance author with limited work. I cannot establish the author as an expert historian.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:51, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

 In progress... Discussion at WP:RSN here for source reliability. Umpire Empire's thought of including historical or biographical details supporting Aromanian origin appears to be the most verifiable way to proceed if RSN deems the sources inconclusive. --JustBerry (talk) 21:50, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The centralized discussion must remain on the DRN. If that is an actual discussion begun there and not just a notification of the issues here....we can't continue at DRN. One venue at a time please.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:54, 30 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry Mark Miller, if editors post their comments on the RSN, I will copy them onto this page under the discussion section and ask for them to comment on this page instead of the RSN post. I have no intention of letting the discussion become decentralised and running on several venues.

JustBerry, what do you mean "Umpire Empire's thought of including historical or biographical details supporting Aromanian origin appears to be the most verifiable way to proceed if RSN deems the sources inconclusive"? I was under the impression that Umpire had said that they opposed any changes unless sourced from "reputable and impartial source[s] containing historically accurate facts"? So I am a bit confused about your comment, sorry. Cheers, Drcrazy102 (talk) 00:09, 1 October 2015 (UTC); updated 00:37, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Drcrazy102: I'm sorry for any confusion I may have caused when I wrote about my willingness to compromise in accordance with any "reputable and impartial source containing historically accurate facts". What I meant by that statement is that if a source composed by an expert on Zappas and the modern Olympics states that Zappas was X based on historical and biographical details/facts/evidence proving that Zappas was X, then X can be inserted into the entry. I hope this clears things up. Umpire Empire (talk) 14:00, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mark Miller: If necessary, the section of the RSN page can be templated into the DRN case and make a note that discussion should be centered around that discussion until the RSN discussion is completed. --JustBerry (talk) 00:52, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mark Miller: It appears that may unnecessarily further complicate matters in trying to template a sub-topic of a noticeboard. To be honest, I would say that the best course of action would be providing historical facts clearly linking the subject to Aromanian identification. Please see my note below to avoid WP:BLP issues. Pinging Drcrazy102. --JustBerry (talk) 00:58, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Drcrazy102: Essentially, rather than simply having a scholar state that the subject may be Aromanian and going back and forth about the scholar's credibility or bias, the statement would be more verifiable if there is a clear ancestral Aromanian lineage of some sort, the subject explicitly claims that they are Aromanian, or their upbringing, actions, etc. clearly highlight that they are in fact Aromanian to avoid WP:BLP issues. --JustBerry (talk) 00:52, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that is what I understood you to be saying however, I am not convinced that the subject of Aromanian descent is properly affixed to this subject and believe that the two of the three sources do not have proper editorial oversight and do not appear to be simply recording or documenting anything formal, but do appear to me government and military biographies that may or may not have proper context themselves. I am convinced that the mention of Vlach or Aromanian descent is not meant to improve the article but to add biased and somewhat racist content not formally associated to the subject. I do not believe the editor involved was not completely aware of this when adding the content but I do not see the burden to demonstrate verifiability being fulfilled by these sources, as their reliability to directly support the contribution is weak and does not meet the threshold of being multiple reliable and strong sources.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:20, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Mark Miller: Quite frankly, the lack of clear, logical deductive reasoning from factual, ancestral, or historical information behind the argument and persistence to include the seemingly unwarranted terminology leads me to believe that the editor may have a WP:COI interest with the issue. I suppose if the opinions of more editors reject the addition of the term, that will most probably be the resolution of the case. --JustBerry (talk) 02:28, 1 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Pinging @Zoupan: and @Alexikoua: for their further comment. Zoupan made the original revert of the content as biased and requested a discussion. Rolandi+ did begin with a discussion but it was less than civil. Alexikoua seemed to be supportive but only because there was one secondary source and Umpire Empire did object to that. At the moment there is no consensus. We know Zoupan and Umpire Empire object to the content with the limited sources. There has been little discussion. I hope the two other editors can weigh in. I decided not to add these names to this request only because the revert war was between the two editors, but with others involved at the talk page, perhaps they can add something to this DRN. Thanks.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:43, 2 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The references that mention Zappas in lists of Aromanian people are of tertiary nature and do not deal with the subject in detail, they just mention his name and that he was part of this community. On the other hand sources that offer in depth descriptions about his life and work mysteriously avoid to mention this fact. Thus, the Aromanian claim is in fact too weak and I would suggest that additional material on the subject is needed here to shed some light.Alexikoua (talk) 19:20, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Alexikoua. I appreciate your input here. Zoupan has been off since September 7 and it is unlikely they are aware of the DR/N. They do have email so I will drop them a guick note.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:25, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Since Zoupan seems unable to comment further at the moment we can assume their last opinion holds. Since they initiated the first revert we know what that opinion is. Therefore I will be closing this as resolved shortly.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:03, 4 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Mark Miller. --JustBerry (talk) 02:08, 5 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Template talk:Caliphate (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Peaceworld111 (talk · contribs)
• Khestwol (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I'll try to make this as short as possible. Relevant sections for the dispute are Template_talk:Caliphate#Spiritual caliphates;Template_talk:Caliphate#New template and Template_talk:Caliphate#Content disupte;User talk:Peaceworld111#July 2015. This version Khestwol wants to keep; and this is my last edited version. This dispute runs over many months and the only active disputant to my edit is perhaps Khestwol. The real difference between my version and that of Khestwol's is that I have added more caliphates and related features of caliphates. In a number of edit summaries, Khestwol appears to have an issue with "major changes", as apparently no consensus has been established. However, from what I understand, the only issue Khestwol has is with the addition of the "Ahmadiyya Caliphate". I say this because, Khestwol doesn't really have any issue with major changes, as he/she explicitly states in User talk:Peaceworld111#July 2015 that "I will be happy if you not again add ISIL, and also the Ahmadiyya Caliphate for that matter". When requested to give a reason, he/she wouldn't give any, with the exception that 'there has been no consensus' to add it, as seen in edit summaries/multiple comments. (Note that Khestwol also disputes the addition of "ISIL claim", but I didn't add that, so let's ignore that for the moment).

Perhaps I should try to place some context. Ahmadiyya is an Islamic denomination, often persecuted and considered "non-Islamic" by some orthodox sects, which incidentally has an (spiritual) caliphate. As an experienced editor on Ahmadiyya related pages, I have often encountered editors (including relatively experienced editors), who have attempted to establish in Wikipedia voice that it is a "non-Muslim sect", including through DRN.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

TP discussions

How do you think we can help?

Read/Discuss/add suggestions; although I think it's a simple case.

Summary of dispute by Khestwol

Template talk:Caliphate discussion

• Volunteer note - While there was discussion on the talk page more than a month ago, there has been no recent (within the past month) discussion. I am neither accepting nor declining this case, but am recommending that it be declined without prejudice due to a lack of recent discussion, and that discussion resume on the talk page. If the discussion continues and is not conclusive, a new request for moderated discussion can be made here. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:48, 3 October 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.