Hosta

Regarding https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kim_Joo-ryoung&oldid=prev&diff=1161961945&markasread=284414296&markasreadwiki=enwiki

I strongly disagree with calling all streaming series “web series”, because streaming services like Netflix are predominantly accessed on television sets, then on mobile apps, not via web browser.

Additionally, to me, “web series” has a connotation of low-budget content or of content made as ancillary to a “main” product like a film, TV series, or ad campaign.

Of course, it’s debatable whether there should be any distinction between a TV series first released on broadcast or cable, vs one first released on a streaming platform, especially as the traditional broadcast/cable networks have all launched streaming services of their own. I’d probably just merge the two lists to “TV series” and call it a day.

Anyhow, I changed both instances back to “streaming”. (I wish you’d originally just corrected the instance I had overlooked, rather than tersely reverting my well-reasoned and explained edit.)

Regards, — tooki (talk) 14:57, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Tooki I strongly disagree with your explanation. And also, what on earth is this "streaming services like Netflix are predominantly accessed on television sets, then on mobile apps, not via web browser" even based on (not a question btw), not as far as I'm aware of such. You yourself (whether it's true or false, isn't my concern) watching on television and/or mobile isn't a valid reasons to push your POV into the article. Netflix or alike is accessible by connecting to the internet and/or World Wide WEB (WWW) hence using the term "web" is correct, try plugging out the ethernet cable and/or disconnecting from the WiFi, I guess one can watch Netflix or alike on television magically without such technology in 2023. In addition, the formatting is consistent with tons of other Korean BLPs articles here hence I don't see why the disruption to the established status quo. As far as I'm aware of, you have no consensus to change it, in fact, per WP:BRD you shouldn't have reverted including after couple of months past. — 🎄🎆 Paper9oll 🎆🎄 (🔔 • 📝) 15:38, 29 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Paper9oll,

First of all, I kindly ask that you restrain your tone. It was likely unintended, but you came off as quite dismissive and condescending. While I am sure that you are acting in good faith, I believe your conclusions are incorrect, so allow me to go into why:

1. ”Internet” and “Web” are not synonyms. The Web is part of the Internet, but the Internet is much more than the Web. You’re only using the Web when using a Web browser. This is not the case when viewing via a TV (using its Netflix app), settop box (using its Netflix app), streaming stick (using its Netflix app), or using the Netflix mobile app on a phone or tablet. When you access Netflix via app (whether on TV, settop box, stick, or mobile device), you are using the Internet, but you are not using the Web.
2. The overwhelming majority (about 71%) of Netflix viewing (by number of viewers) is done on television sets (about 45%) or mobile apps (about 27%). Comparatively little of it (about 22%) is done via Web browser. This is not an assumption or guess, nor “POV” based on my own preferences, but rather based on actual viewing statistics: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1233952/devices-netflix-tv-shows-us/ with which I was familiar before making the edit.
3. The page Squid Game, which will have had vastly more editing (and thus consensus) than the actress’s page, calls it a “television series”. (As I said in my original message, it’s debatable whether streaming series should even be distinct from traditional TV series. The pages for other series that had their first (or only) run on Netflix quite consistently call them “television series”, “streaming series”, or “streaming television series”. These should be indicative of dominant terminology in English.)

As such, calling Squid Game a “Web series” seems very inappropriate given that:

1. it is 3.5x as likely to be watched without use of the Web.
2. it is typically referred to as a “television series” or “streaming series” (or simply “series”).
3. it is not a “Web series” in the new-media sense.

Consequently, would you accept me simply changing it to “television series” and merging the existing TV and Web filmography lists under the heading “Television” or “Series”?

As far as the perceived procedural errors you’re accusing me of:

• Consistency between pages is not a reason to maintain poor terminology. Another option is to propagate the improvement across to those other pages.
• Prior consensus is not required before making changes, especially ones as small as this. My edit was a legitimate good-faith edit, and my re-edit equally so. In both cases I provided a full explanation for the edit, in contrast with the terse, vague edit summaries you provided when reverting them.
• Reaching consensus includes “an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns”, but I do not feel you’ve made sufficient effort to address my concerns, since you simply dismissed them as “POV” or “true or false, isn’t my concern”.
• WP:BRD is not mandatory, as its own page explains. My approach fell into one of the alternatives listed on that page.

As I believe that this response more than thoroughly explains why my edit was justified, and I ask that you back down and allow me to make the proposed edit without further interference. If you do not agree, kindly copy this discussion into the article’s talk page for broader discussion.

— tooki (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Tooki I already stated my point above which doesn't changes anything regardless of your lengthy explanation which I still disagreed on. And all calling someone for being dismissive nor condescending just because they don't agreed with is a form of WP:PERSONAL ATTACK regardless of you meaning it or not, which in this case, you don't mean it, but regardless this is not good even if you're angry. I'm against changing the status quo period hence you do not have WP:CONSENSUS in reverting (including merging) which is what WP:BRD is all about, if you have any concerns on such then you should be requesting to change the status quo on WT:KO instead given that the status quo i.e. categorization of Netflix/Disney+/Amazon Prime/Viki/Viu/etc as "Web series" applies on every single Korean actor/actress BLPs article that I know of (which is more than 500+ that I have on my WP:WATCHlist) in which there is no such thing that Kim Joo-ryoung is an exception. Of which, if you're intenting on doing so, I'm requesting you not to get my involvement nor mentioned my name nor did I gave you permission to copy this entire discussion (you can copy your own comments but without my username) otherwise I will considered this as a form of WP:HARASSMENT as changing the status quo on every single Korean actor/actress BLPs article has no relationship to this discussion and my comments as I have stated clearly in preceding sentence, editors are to have an neutral rationale for their discussion. However, as the discussion if opened on WT:KO is intended to be neutral, I will still give my WP:!VOTE. Otherwise, WP:DROPTHESTICK as I have no addition comments to addon to here regardless of your another lengthy reply, if applicable, which I'm still going to disagreed on. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 06:26, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, it is not the fact that you disagree that makes your behavior appear condescending, it is the tone you have used in expressing your replies. Telling you this was simply intended as a reminder for you to please remain civil. As a reminder, according to WP:NOPA, “discussion of a user's conduct or history is not in itself a personal attack when done in the appropriate forum for such discussion (for example, the other editor's talk page, or Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents).” As such, I am confident that my comments did not constitute a personal attack.

The appearance of dismissiveness comes from the fact that you have not shown any effort at all to actually incorporate my legitimate concerns. You cite WP:BRD repeatedly, yet appear wholly unwilling to engage in the “D” in BRD.

Your reverts appear to me to be a clear violation of WP:DRNC and the refusal to discuss seems to me like an example of WP:BRNOD.

FYI, it is within the realm of the possible for something to be wrong — or merely worthy of improvement — on 500+ pages. Even a small improvement is an improvement, after all. I totally agree with you that consistency is an important goal, but think that the goal should be to use the best terminology consistently. In this instance, I think it’s better to use terminology that is unambiguous: clearly there isn’t total consensus about whether OTT-first TV series are “web series” or not. But OTT-first series are, without doubt, “series”, and without doubt they are on “streaming” services, so the common “streaming series” is a completely unambiguous term that eliminates confusion. — tooki (talk) 13:35, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Paper9oll,

I was looking at Yeh Shu-Hua and don't see this term or name mentioned on the target article. What is the connection between Paper9oll and this musical group? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 04:44, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Liz Full name for (G)I-dle's member Shuhua. See Google search result. And what you meant by connection between me and this musical group, typo? — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 10:32, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]