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Fixing comment to address GoodDay rather than Hijiri. EC
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*::::::{{ec|4}} "Or perhaps" indeed. To me AGFing means assuming that they're ''just'' trying to get a rise out of people because in their mind it proves some sort of point, rather than that they're trying to push an anti-trans POV. I do wish people wouldn't jump in to a discussion that's proceeding ''relatively'' civilly just to land a few rhetorical punches. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- [[User:Tamzin|<span style="color:deeppink;">Tamzin</span>]]</span><sup>[''[[User talk:Tamzin|<span style="color:deeppink;">cetacean needed</span>]]'']</sup> (she/they)</span> 02:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
*::::::{{ec|4}} "Or perhaps" indeed. To me AGFing means assuming that they're ''just'' trying to get a rise out of people because in their mind it proves some sort of point, rather than that they're trying to push an anti-trans POV. I do wish people wouldn't jump in to a discussion that's proceeding ''relatively'' civilly just to land a few rhetorical punches. <span class="nowrap"> <span style="font-family:courier">-- [[User:Tamzin|<span style="color:deeppink;">Tamzin</span>]]</span><sup>[''[[User talk:Tamzin|<span style="color:deeppink;">cetacean needed</span>]]'']</sup> (she/they)</span> 02:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
* '''Yes''' until an announcement on social media about pronouns of choice and the official websites updating to reflect that. In Utada's main career when tens of millions of albums were sold, Utada went by "she/her" and was picking up awards as a top female singer, but that's now in the past. Also if Utada picks different pronouns than they/them, we may need to revisit that for standards. [[User:AngusWOOF|<strong><span style="color: #606060;" class="nowrap">AngusW🐶🐶F</span></strong>]] ([[User talk:AngusWOOF#top|<span style=" color: #663300;">bark</span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/AngusWOOF|<span style="color: #006600;">sniff</span>]]) 02:26, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
* '''Yes''' until an announcement on social media about pronouns of choice and the official websites updating to reflect that. In Utada's main career when tens of millions of albums were sold, Utada went by "she/her" and was picking up awards as a top female singer, but that's now in the past. Also if Utada picks different pronouns than they/them, we may need to revisit that for standards. [[User:AngusWOOF|<strong><span style="color: #606060;" class="nowrap">AngusW🐶🐶F</span></strong>]] ([[User talk:AngusWOOF#top|<span style=" color: #663300;">bark</span>]] • [[Special:Contributions/AngusWOOF|<span style="color: #006600;">sniff</span>]]) 02:26, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Should a [[WP:SNOW]] close be issued? In one or two days, ten users gave yes votes and one hasn't officially voted but their statements clearly indicate no. Said user is arguing that there isn't enough proof that Hikaru still uses grammatically correct pronouns, which Crossroads and Hijiri have thoroughly debunked. IP's keep adding in that she changed to they/them pronouns, so either add a hidden note on both the top of the page and personal life section that she still uses real pronouns, or even better the post-June 2021 articles that refer to Hikaru with female pronouns. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 02:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Revision as of 02:48, 27 October 2021

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Badly outdated

There's all kinds of "an announcement was made that [something in the future]" stuff in this article about stuff that was in the future in, say, 2010, but which is now way in the past. This material needs to be rewritten to say what did happen rather than what was once planned to happen, or it's simply unencyclopedic "old news".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:10, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a B-class article in my opinion

I like Utada, but I find this article to be hell to read because of the choppy prose and one section (2010–15) being overly long. The article doesn't even elaborate further on her musical styles, such as the types of sounds her albums convey or her lyrical topics. There's also no awards section whatsoever, and I can imagine with how big she is in Japan that'd she be nominated for several awards. (if hadn't not won any) Let's not forget the missing references in some sections either. Because of these reasons, I think that this article should be reduced to a C-class.100cellsman (talk) 05:40, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Standardizing use of last name as subject (MOS)

This article needs a review to standardize referencing the performer by last/family name as the subject of sentences throughout.
Ref: Katy Perry and Kevin Hart are referenced by last name ("Perry did this"; "Hart did that") in standard encyclopedia/journalistic style.
Currently the article switches back and forth between her fist and last name. It should be "Utada" throughout.--GimmeChoco44 (talk) 09:11, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 9 October 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Typically, although Eastern name order is preferred by Japanese people when Romanizing their names, there isn't a general consensus on which name order to use in WP:JTITLE – hence, we have the article at Shinzo Abe, not Abe Shinzo. One could compare this to Qazaqstan vs. Kazakhstan or Chornobyl vs Chernobyl, where the natural transliteration isn't the one in common English usage. If the Western name order for Utada – or, indeed, the Eastern name order for other figures – garners greater usage, the matter can be revisited. However, in the case of Utada, the links provided by TJRC indicate her releases tend to be attributed to "Utada" or "Utada Hikaru". (closed by non-admin page mover) Sceptre (talk) 20:29, 16 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Utada Hikaru → Hikaru Utada – Her english name have to be "Hikaru Utada" as well as other japanese english names, like "Shinzo Abe," "Seiji Ozawa," "Takeshi Kaneshiro," "Kohei Uchida," "Ayumu Hirano," "Shizuka Arakawa," "Satomi Ishihara, "Yoko Ono." Moreover, up to now, her official website in english language has been calling her "Hikaru Utada." See Hikaru Utada Official Website NEWS and amazon.com. Her japanese name is "宇多田ヒカル," therefore, "Utada Hikaru" is just her japanese name's romanization. This means that "Utada Hikaru" cannot be her english name, even if some people have mistaken so. And then, I cannot help but think that nobody can discuss this critical mistake constructively, because this rule about japanese people's english name is already traditional rule and self-evident truth. Nobody, except nuts, can insist "Utada" is her first name. Nobody, except nuts, can insist her first name "Hikaru" should be placed at the position of english last name "Utada," ignoring english name's traditional rule and her will. Beaver4100 (talk) 22:30, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Steel1943 (talk) 23:50, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The current title is a result of consensus formed via discussion at Talk:Utada Hikaru/Archive 4#Requested move 22 January 2016. For that reason alone, this move request is controversial. (Ping Beaver4100.) Steel1943 (talk) 23:50, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I have to say again. If there can be a consensus on current title "Utada Hikaru," the consensus is only a fake consensus fabricated by romanaization nuts. I have already explained it above. Beaver4100 (talk) 02:43, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Per my experiences, as well as the evidence presented in the previous move discussion, the current title is evidently the subject's WP:COMMONNAME. Steel1943 (talk) 23:54, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you are talking about. Please give us a concrete explanation. You haven't explain nothing. Beaver4100 (talk) 02:05, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Eastern name order??? Eastern name??? Who doesn't understand Eastern name order? It's you. You don't even know that English name of Japanese person differs greatly from that of other asian person. Beaver4100 (talk) 01:57, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - As per WP:COMMONNAME, Utada Hikaru is her stage name and is used majority of Utada's articles and in sources. Stage name over English name. TheDeviantPro (talk) 00:29, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Her stage name for Japanese people over English name? Why??? What are you talking about? Her English name is the best for English Wikipedia and all of the persons in the English-speaking world. And, you seems to be lying. Show us all of the evidences that her stage name is always "Utada Hikaru." Beaver4100 (talk) 01:36, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Just because it's an English wikipedia doesn't mean we should dismiss WP:COMMONNAME. The fact your ignoring that there's been a long lasting consensus on the article since 2016 and reverting anyone who revert your bold edits shows that you're edit warring on the article. TheDeviantPro (talk) 02:56, 11 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Defaultsort

I recently copied the defaultsort from here and added it to Template:Utada Hikaru songs to keep them consistent, but my edit was reverted. I found that the defaultsort here was changed on April 23, 2019, [1], and it currently sorts in categories by Hikaru, while the template, Template:Utada Hikaru, Utada Hikaru discography, List of songs recorded by Utada Hikaru and List of awards received by Utada Hikaru. I wanted to make sure which sorting was correct and make the articles and template consistent in their use. Aspects (talk) 05:28, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Since no one has commented, I am going to revert back to the previous defaultsort to keep the articles and templates consistent. Aspects (talk) 04:55, 9 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Pronouns?

Has Utada announced which pronouns are correct? Given the Instagram post complaining about "Miss/Mrs/Ms" being used, it might be they/them? 2A02:8109:A33F:F27C:150A:8BDE:B6C2:17CC (talk) 17:20, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Utada has not yet provided any preferred pronouns, and the "Miss/Mrs/Ms" thing was also (and primarily) about marital status. I say that until Utada confirms pronouns, the article should continue to use "she/her" for consistency's sake. Non-binary does not automatically mean that the person goes by they/them, and automatically assuming that could also be misgendering. I have also brought this issue up with the Manual of Style team because Wikipedia does not currently have guidelines for how to handle this situation. -Wohdin (talk) 17:53, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The article should use they/them pronouns until Utada specifies their preferences explicitly. In their Instagram post they say that they feel that using "Miss/Mrs/Ms" misrepresents them, and that they want to be referred to using a word "that anybody of any gender or social standing could use". They/them pronouns would most accurately reflect this. I would also like to see if the Manual of Style could address this, though. 〜 ♥ (˘꒳˘ ) Teafed, (she/her) (talk) 22:16, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Rephrasing to avoid pronouns entirely is tedious and leaves the article somewhat clunky, but is a possibility in a case like this. I would prefer "they/them" over "she/her" on the grounds that "they/them" is a perfectly fine gender-neutral pronoun (not just a pronoun some non-binary people use), but "she/her" is not. Ultimately, we're in a very tough situation without elaboration by the subject. — Bilorv (talk) 11:45, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If the person hasn't specified any preferred pronouns, changing to "they" is misgendering. ... discospinster talk 02:29, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If the subject hasn't specified what their pronouns are, then using she/her pronouns for them could potentially be misgendering them. Conversely, they/them pronouns can be used when the pronouns of the person being referred to are unknown (see the singular they article for more details). Additionally, I would note that the subject wrote in their Instagram post about wanting to be referred to with a word that "anybody of any gender or social standing could use". GreenComputer (talk) 17:34, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No. Unless she has explicitly said that she prefers they/them pronouns, it is inappropriate to change them. Not all NB people like to be referred to as they/them as there are other gender-neutral pronouns. Wait until she says one way or the other. ... discospinster talk 18:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Discospinster is correct here. Certainly if Utada expresses a preference it should be followed; but in the absence of that, Wikipedia cannot presume to know her preferences. TJRC (talk) 18:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that we cannot presume to know what Utada's pronouns are until they explicitly state their pronouns. However, this also means that we should not use she/her pronouns for Utada unless they say otherwise. I was suggesting we use they/them pronouns as they can be used as gender-neutral pronouns to refer to anyone, however avoiding pronouns entirely is also an option. I would note that most reliable sources appear to have used they/them pronouns when referring to Utada (e.g. [2][3][4][5][6][7][8]). GreenComputer (talk) 23:18, 22 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just because so-called reliable sources refer to her with they/them pronouns, that does not mean she prefers those, especially since Japanese doesn't have gender-exclusive pronouns I believe (I believe watashi is gender-dominant for female, but I've seen it used by males referring to themselves). Like people have said above, several non-binary people use grammatically correct pronouns (see Rebecca Sugar and Miley Cyrus), and thus Utada should be referred to with her last known preferred pronouns until she officially and directly says she prefers grammatically incorrect ones. Unnamed anon (talk) 19:02, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed (except for the implication that singular they is not grammatically correct - though it can be more ambiguous). Indeed, if the BLP has not said anything about pronouns, we should presume until it is stated otherwise that that is itself a choice, and remain with the status quo. Crossroads -talk- 23:21, 24 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Half of those sources are coming from LGBT-related websites. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 22:46, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Singular they is an acceptable pronoun. Also my preferred pronoun (they/them) for myself on Wikipedia. As an aside, you can use {{pronoun}} on other Wikipedia users to find their prefs, although updating preferences to newer pronouns has yet to be done. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 23:32, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

An IP editor today reinstated the plural they/them pronouns, but this time with a source.[1] Assuming todayonline.com is a WP:RS (I'm not familiar with it, so cannot opine either way), I think that's sufficient to support the change. TJRC (talk) 03:17, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't reverted it, but given the obscurity of this source, that it isn't new so it isn't like there was something just said, the fact that other and better sources don't say that, and the fact that thus one just asserts it, I am inclined to doubt they actually have information other sources don't. Anyone else have thoughts on this? Crossroads -talk- 20:55, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's an obscure source that quotes her Instagram post and adds further subjective context. But that post specifically reference her marriage status, not pronoun usage. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:28, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For an out nonbinary person, "they-them" pronouns are much less likely to be "wrong" than gendered pronouns, in cases where sources conflict or are unclear. The argument "we don't know for sure, so we should stick to the gendered pronouns from before he/she came out as nonbinary" strikes me as special pleading, and directly contrary to the spirit (if not the letter) of MOS:GENDERID. The balance of probabilities for "what is most likely to misgender the BLP subject" seems pretty clear in this case. Newimpartial (talk) 21:53, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Lee, Wei Lin (July 5, 2021). "Utada Hikaru Comes Out As Non-Binary". Today Online. Retrieved August 5, 2021. Utada, who now uses the pronouns they/them...

Until Hikaru states explicitly that she wants a specific pronoun, standard English rules apply to this article. The quote attributed to her is not a definitive statement, and a commentary on marital status more than sexuality -- GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:05, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, that isn't the way MOS:GENDERID works. The article must defer to the most recently announced gender identity professed by the subject: in this case, nonbinary. Granted, some nonbinary people use gendered pronouns, either alone or alongside they/them. But is it possible to misgender a nonbinary person by using "they/them"? Not really. Is it possible to misgender a nonbinary person by using gendered pronouns? Definitely, yes. And, perhaps most importantly, in standard English, what pronouns does one use when they do not know what a person's pronoun preference is (or doesn't known the gender of a person at all)? They/them. So the correct choice, per policy, is pretty dang obvious. Newimpartial (talk) 22:29, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia doesn't deal in "possible" or "perhaps" or "pretty dang obvious". If there is not a factual reference for changing an existing use of the pronoun, we have to default to standard past usage until there is something definitive. I'm sure if you're patient, Utada will come up with a new pronoun just for herself. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:32, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
MOS:GENDERID has site-wide consensus, and requires that we respect the most recently expressed gender self-identification. We have that; it is nonbinary. Since we have that, we do not need a factual reference for a pronoun choice before changing the pronouns. Since we do not know for sure the subject's preference, we use standard English they/them far he than past usage gendered pronouns - the past usage simply no longer applies after a gender identity announcement. Newimpartial (talk) 22:40, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The missing piece here is the actual gender announcement from a reliable, cited source. The articles with non-binary headlines are copies of each other based on a subjective recollection of a livestream. Let's be patient and wait until we have something reliable. At such time, this artist may choose an existing non-binary pronoun, state a preference to remain a "she", or create a new pronoun just for her. Waiting for such reference is an acceptable compromise, I think. -- GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:53, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Animenewsnetwork looks editorially sound (and therefore RS) to me. Newimpartial (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But the person has also not said anything about pronouns or gave any indication the pronouns should change from the ones already in use for the person even though that could easily have been done. This is a very borderline case and seems ripe for an RfC. Crossroads -talk- 22:44, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree on need for RfC. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
RfC if you like, but in English we use "they/them" if we don't know the pronouns, and most "out" nonbinary people prefer "they/them" anyway. The attempt to retain gendered pronouns in the face of a nonbinary gender announcement, and with no more support than "wE cAnT bE sUrE", is a clear thumb to the nose directed at MOS:GENDERID. Newimpartial (talk) 22:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No one is thumbing their nose at anyone. That's a presumptive assessment. If consensus is reached, we can all move forward. We're all working together to maintain a fact-based page for the artist.-- GimmeChoco44 (talk) 22:58, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Futhermore Newimpartial , please refrain from personal accusations such as "stop trying to distended nonbinary people" or "clear thumb in the nose" -- there have been no aggressive statements directed at you or any group of people, and reciprocal respect would be appreciated while we have debate among editors with contrasting points of view. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 23:11, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
RFC and wait for reliable sources that Utada has explicitly declared pronouns. Mys. or whatever is more like an honorific to deal with marital status and the "what makes you think i'm 'straight'?" statement is as vague as the pride flag postings. It's becoming a practice in conference call introductions for speakers to list out or state preferred pronouns. You can de-genderize the pronouns for now, replacing them with Utada. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 23:04, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Do you see anything in MOS:GENDERID that would support waiting until the subject has explicitly declared pronouns? We have a reliable source reporting a gender identity declaration as nonbinary; that is enough to require us to strip out all gendered pronouns for now. Newimpartial (talk) 23:31, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Anyway, I have gone ahead and removed all personal pronouns for the time being, which is incontestibly compliant with WP policy. Newimpartial (talk) 00:16, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And User:TJRC has reverted the strictly NPOV version that used neither "she" nor "they", and re-inserted four misgendering categories (which is a transparently clear BLP vio). Make it stop! Please, for the love of all that is holy, make it stop! Newimpartial (talk) 00:44, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have reinstated a version without pronouns, for now, as several editors with different perspectives have suggested. Newimpartial (talk) 20:17, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Newimpartial There is a lot of "I have done this" and not enough of "We have agreed on that" in your updates. Please try working with other editors in reaching a consensus on this point instead of instantaneous revisions. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 20:36, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The policy WP:CONLEVEL mandates that site-wide consensus, as embodied in MOS:GENDERID, takes priority over local consensus. Your revert is not compliant with this community-wide consensus. Newimpartial (talk) 20:40, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Newimpartial - Please help us locate a direct reliable source for the quote that's at the root of this change, and we'll all support your changes. Unitl the source is verified, this issue will keep coming up. The multiple copies of copies of the same citation (of a subjective recollection of a livestream) won't help us. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 20:56, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple, reliable sources have been provided at ANI, as you should know. Drop the horse carcass, please. Newimpartial (talk) 21:01, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@GimmeChoco44: we are not independent researchers, it's not our job to "verify" the work of reliable sources and publish our own original research on the matter. Regardless, the source of the clip is here:[9], at 2:32. That took me about a minute or so to find, so I'm sure if you cared to look you would've found it too. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 21:06, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@GimmeChoco44: The burden of proof is on you to show that she/her are Hikaru's pronouns and should be used instead of the neutral singular they. Even if it is debated that Hikaru is non-binary, we would still use singular they, as that is gender neutral, so it can be applied to anyone. Usage of gendered-pronouns require reliable sources because they imply a gender identity, whereas gender-neutral pronouns do not. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 22:03, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
On the same point, the video which ANN is citing is a fan upload of the livestream found here: [10]. So I feel that the issue can now be resolved by shifting the article to non-binary pronouns.
-- And Volteer1 -- saying things like "if you cared" falls into the same category of inappropriate discourse that Newimpartial's comments fall into. We can arrive at a group decision a lot easier by keeping cool heads and being polite. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 21:14, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@GimmeChoco44: So you support switching to non-binary pronouns in the article? If so I think we're quite close to resolving this dispute. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 22:08, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's correct. My issue had been identifying the "independent, reliable source". Now that it's been identified, we can secure this new version with non-binary pronouns and protect the article from further debate. --23:51, 7 August 2021 (UTC)
  • There have been 3RR violations going on. Might it be that some editors care more about Utada's pronouns than Utada does? This is, again, only a dispute because Utada has never said anything on the question. Crossroads -talk- 23:21, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Isn't they or them, plural pronouns? GoodDay (talk) 20:01, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support changing the pronouns I've seen no valid reasons not to use the singular 'they' pronoun for this article. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 21:35, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support changing the pronouns I have no further objection to the pronouns being changed to the format proposed by Newimpartial. -- GimmeChoco44 (talk) 23:43, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • This !voting style will be slightly confusing for at least the short-term, as the article is currently using singular they pronouns and is fully protected for a week. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 23:50, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, I don't disagree, but this isn't an RfC so I think people can figure things out, given time. Newimpartial (talk) 23:53, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support gender-neutral pronouns, as a straightforward reading of MOS:GNL. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 23:56, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose they/them pronouns unless/until a reliable source indicates that the use of such pronouns is Utada's preference. It's Utada's preference that matters. TJRC (talk) 01:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, fortunately for your preferences, the currently frozen version of the article has no personal pronouns. But this is English Wikipedia, and in English the default pronouns where gender is unknown or at question are "they/them". See also the discussion at ANI.

Newimpartial (talk) 01:12, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've already commented above about the pronouns, but we should not be using any gendered categories at this time—that includes non-binary categories. Mountain out of a molehill anyway, as readers very rarely actually use the categories. — Bilorv (talk) 20:22, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Just for the record, I neither added nor removed any nonbinary cats. Newimpartial (talk) 20:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose they/them pronouns. The independent source, while reliable, says nothing about pronouns, and to claim it foes would be original research. It does reliably claim that Utada is non-binary, but that is independent of pronouns. I'd like to point once again to Rebecca Sugar, a non-binary who uses female pronouns. Until Utada herself says something about pronouns, and not just non-binary status, stick with the status quo. Newimpartial keeps pointing us to MOS:GENDERID to have the pronouns be they/them, but MOS:GENDERID quotes Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources.. By this logic, pronouns should be she/her until Utada directly addresses her pronouns, not just her gender. Unnamed anon (talk) 23:14, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • But Utada's last expressed gender self-identification is non-binary, not female. While some non-binary AFAB people use female or female/neutral pronouns, others use male pronouns (e.g., Elliot Page, many more prefer neutral pronouns, and it would be EXTRAORDINARY to claim that Utada prefers female pronouns at this time, particularly since we have reliable sources stating the opposite.
    • However, the frozen version of the article used neither female nor neutral pronouns fo3 Utada, so we have time to wait and accumulate sources before contemplating change. There should certainly be no change back to female pronouns without a supporting source that postdates Utada's nonbinary announcement. Newimpartial (talk) 01:12, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Has a formal RfC been opened? The !votes above suggest yes, but there is no indication of such having happened despite what looks like a general agreement for one. In the interim, the version without any pronouns at all does feel to be an adequate compromise—and a valid alternative overall per AngusWoof. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 20:58, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@TenTonParasol: There is not a formal request for comment open. I'd be willing to start one though, I have a knack for formalities 😉 ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 21:01, 13 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose gender-neutral pronouns for now Put simply, this comment is very difficult to read as a statement of gender-identity, at least to me (as a cisgender, unmarried male who speaks English natively and has near-native proficiency in Japanese). It is specifically about titles (presumably Utada has been required to circle/tick one or another option on English-language forms), not pronouns. Somewhat tellingly, Utada's official Twitter account does not list any preferred pronouns despite recent Twitter trends[11]; there's a lot of speculation (which I won't link to) among random Twitter-denizens about her pronouns, with some insisting, as others have done above here, that she "is non-binary" and "uses they/them pronouns now" and others saying they've been unable to find evidence of such.
We have no evidence that the subject has a problem with female-gendered pronouns. The Instagram post is about honorifics (something we don't need to worry about at all, per MOS:SURNAME), and given that Utada is a native speaker of Japanese (wherein common honorifics, with the partial exception of -kun, are mostly gender-neutral, almost no honorifics relate to marital status, and it's pretty rare to refer to a married woman as -fujin), it is likely very difficult for most editors of English Wikipedia, even those with a focus on J-Pop, to interpret her statements correctly in their original context (even if such "interpretations" were generally acceptable with Anglo-American subjects). Extrapolating from the above-linked Instagram post (which says It makes me uncomfortable to be identified so markedly by my marital status or sex, and I don’t relate to any of those prefixes.) that Utada self-identifies as non-binary, not female is very, very problematic and I would say violates BLP: indeed, the post actually refers to "female" as "my ... sex", and just says that the subject doesn't like using "prefixes" based on sex and marital status.
To make a hypothetical comparison, if a Japanese popstar was biologically male and had been universally identified as male for decades, and if traditional English titles identified both men and women, or just men, by their marital status (but Japanese honorifics were identical to how they are in the real world), and said popstar posted in English on social media that he didn't want to use a title that is based on a combination of sex and marital status, we would almost certainly not be asking the questions of whether he should be called "non-binary" and whether we should change the pronouns (which are different from titles, in that our articles use the former but not the latter). Another comparison, perhaps easier-to-understand for non-bilingual editors, would be that if, say, Judi Dench said she didn't want to be identified as "Dame", such a comment could very easily be interpreted as indicating discomfort with traditional titles of nobility, or with how such traditional titles are gender-exclusive in some cases but not others, and anyone claiming that such a comment constituted a statement of gender identity would likely be laughed at. (Just to be clear, Judi Dench was just the first name that came to mind; I have no evidence that she would ever make such a comment, and I'm sure there are better examples I could have given of people who might make, or even have made, such comments.)
All that being said, if Utada does make an explicit statement of non-binary gender identity or gives "preferred pronouns" in some form, then I would be happy to change my !vote. All I am saying is that for now, we simply don't have any reliable sources that support the proposed change, and the source that has been cited is apparently being misinterpreted by those supporting the proposed change.
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:12, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Hijiri88: I think you've done a good job explaining why we should use gender neutral pronouns. At the very least we know Utada does not prefer to be labeled based on their sex. That alone is good enough reason to use gender neutral pronouns, which are commonplace in English language. If there is ever any contention on a subject's gender identity, we should use gender-neutral pronouns, as they are usable for anyone, including cisgender people.
P.S. Are you aware the article already describes Utada as non-binary in the Personal Life section? ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 03:30, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Arrgh. I did not see that, no. Hmm... I'll have to reconsider my stance, then; is the archive of the livestream in question still accessible? The ANN article in question includes a direct quote, but it also opens by saying Singer Hikaru Utada announced on Instagram on Friday that they are nonbinary., with a link to the aforementioned Instagram post that definitely does not constitute by itself an "announce[ment] ... that they are nonbinary". I will admit that I am editing somewhat outside my wheelhouse here: if a non-specialist wrote an article for a news website that said that such-and-such pre-modern male waka poet's writing in the persona of a woman (for example) constituted an "announcement" of "being nonbinary", such a source could be easily dismissed as having been written by someone who had no idea what they are talking about (and such things have definitely happened many, many times with people citing ANN and other such sources in Wikipedia articles on academic topics, which has somewhat biased me against such sources), but I rarely edit either J-Pop (or pop culture in general) articles or articles on LGB or gender identity topics, so in this case I'm the non-specialist (and I know I'm in the minority regarding the "general reliability" of pop culture sources). This is, of course, not a "vote", so my comment can be taken for what it's worth in light of the fact that I hadn't noticed that our article already explicitly calls her non-binary, citing a source that I personally consider to be sub-par but others probably don't. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that looking at that livestream directly may be a good idea. And that is a good point that ANN inferring that from the mere Instagram post is a bad sign for them as a source. If the livestream said it, then Utada is non-binary. FormalDude, while perhaps it is technically true that singular they is usable for anyone, including cisgender people, the fact is that in the general culture, use of "they" for a specific known person strongly implies that the person identifies as non-binary. Going without pronouns is definitely the safest option in this case. Crossroads -talk- 04:00, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with the notion that the Singular they has any implication of a person's gender identity. It is explicitly gender neutral, which can be confusing, because it sounds similar to "non-binary", but it is not at all the same as being "non-binary". Gender neutral means a lack of gender definition, or that it can be applied to all genders indiscriminately. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 04:11, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum: I just saw this. By the way, perhaps the bit about Mx. should be cut? It's sourced to ANN and Instagram, but we shouldn't be implying that dislike of English female honorifics necessarily means that someone is nonbinary. Only the self-declaration establishes that. Crossroads -talk- 04:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'd agree with cutting or moving the Mx. portion, so as not to imply that is the reason they are non-binary. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 04:17, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, I am not an expert in this field either–I think few Wikipedians are. It seems like you're more concerned with the gender identity claim rather than the use of particular pronouns, which I agree is a secondary but relative matter to the subject's gender identity. I found another corroborating source for the non-binary claim, which I added to the article. It will probably be hard to find an archive of the Instagram live stream, which is probably why we're using third-party sources (a primary source would be acceptable for gender identity, but we don't have one other than the unarchived live stream). ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 04:06, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's kinda-off-topic (hence small text), since if our subject were unambiguously cisgender we probably would not be having this discussion, but in contemporary standard English usage, usable for anyone, including cisgender people is only really applicable in certain circumstances, such as an unspecified person whose gender is not known, a hypothetical person who doesn't have a known gender, or someone whose gender is being consciously hidden. As dated as season 7 of the American sitcom Friends is in many ways (the following season contained a very dated/cringeworthy reference to intersex individuals), it is somewhat telling that, when Rachel was pretending to have hired, as her assistant, a qualified elderly woman rather than an attractive young man with no experience, she repeatedly referred to "my new assistant" and avoided pronouns of any kind: "they/them" would, in the standard American English speech of the early 2000s, have given her away as deliberately concealing something; this "standard American English speech of the early 2000s" has changed somewhat in recent years, and people who were yet to be born as of 2000 might be surprised by this, but for the vast majority of cisgender article subjects who are as old as me or older, referring to them as "they/them" within their own articles (as opposed to speaking about them in general, as I am doing now), without any apparent reason, would come across as questioning their gender identity. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:36, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There you have it–I was born in 98', so I am most familiar with modern 21st century English. (I've never even seen a full episode of Friends!) ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 05:43, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break

@Hijiri88: @FormalDude: To clarify for those editors who commented above, the Instagram livestream which contains Utada's declaration of being non-binary is publicly available here. --GimmeChoco44 (talk) 05:15, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Now is when I'd appreciate @Hijiri88's translation skills. Does it match what the sources quote Utada as having said? ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 05:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I'll watch it (and check on the Wikipedia policy for people who have self-identified as non-binary but have not specified preferred pronouns -- I suspect there might be non-binary people who don't mind using the pronouns that were assigned to them at birth, and, given how many people I've seen on Twitter talking about pronouns but not what Utada called "prefixes", it seems somewhat telling that Utada specifically stated a dislike of "Miss/Mrs./Ms." and said nothing about pronouns) later. Someone in the comments seems to have asked Utada what pronouns to use, only to be met with several people (probably trolls) referring to "Utada-sama" (how our subject is likely to be addressed in formal Japanese emails) as a "pronoun" and one person (likely also a troll) talking about Jesus. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:36, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, -sama is not English, but Japanese, and pronouns are quite rare in Japanese. The commonest Japanese "pronouns" translated "he"/"him"/"his" and "she"/"her"/"her" literally mean "that one" and "that woman" respectively, and are often used as nouns meaning "boyfriend" and "girlfriend" respectively. These "pronouns" are also not inherently subjective/objective/possessive/etc. -- they are accompanied by postpositions such as wa, ga, o, ni, e, no, etc. that serve those purposes. Languages code things differently (my French is rusty, but IIRC French possessives do not specify the gender of the possessor as English and even Japanese, but does distinguish plural pronouns for all-female groups from all-male/mixed groups): given our subject's having been born and partially raised in the United States, it seems reasonable to assume our subject is familiar with both English and contemporary trends in usage among progressive American youth, but for the majority of our subject's -- a J-Pop artist's -- audience, for whom English is a special way of encoding Japanese that they are taught in secondary school (rather than a separate, living language), such concepts are (probably? again, not a specialist) quite alien. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:48, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @FormalDude: the quote comes from her speaking English, at 2:32, not Japanese. It's not translated. ‑‑Volteer1 (talk) 06:04, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, well I guess that resolves it for me as far as content goes. I still really wish we could get a better source than ANN; I just noticed that they seem to confuse sexual orientation with gender identity, and do exactly what I referred to above (i.e., assume a song written in the persona of a fictional gay woman who can't be with her female friend romantically is a "tease" as to Utada's real-world sexual orientation and/or gender identity). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:02, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This just came to my attention, but the English version of Utada's official website still uses "she" twice and "her" well over a dozen times, while not using "they", "them" or "their" at all.[12] Is this because Utada, as a non-binary Japanese, sees masculine and feminine singular pronouns (or adjectives?) as a part of the English language rather than a statement of gender identity? Or just a failure to update the website since March? Given that Utada's official Twitter profile doesn't give preferred pronouns and Utada's official website continues to use "she" and "her" almost two months after Utada "came out as non-binary", I think it would be inappropriate for us to speculate on the reason or reasons for these discrepancies; we should probably just continue to use the pronouns used on Utada's official website. Honestly, it seems like either Utada might have been talking to a monolingual American friend about a preference for Japanese third-person pronouns and honorifics that don't put so much emphasis on gender or marital status, said American friend might have said "Oh, are you non-binary?", and things went from there, or Utada initially expressed a dislike for the "Mr."/"Miss"/"Mrs." trichotomy in English (I'm pretty sure I've heard of Japanese EFL learners being told that "Mrs." means -fujin, which is technically true in Japanese but no one would think referring to a married woman as "[married surname]-fujin" and never as "[preferred name]-san" is acceptable, so the translation is less than ideal; marital status, of course, has nothing to do with gender identity, and indeed in a lot of places and times it has had very little to do with sexual orientation or even romantic affinity) on Instagram or elsewhere and non-japonophone fans started extrapolating that Utada had self-identified as non-binary -- this is exactly what the opening line of the ANN article does, and it's what many people in this thread were doing for more than a month until Volteer finally posted the CQqsEK3JwaG link (wherein Utada actually does self-identify as "non-binary" in both English and Japanese) on 7 August. Given all of this, I think we should just say "Utada self-identified as non-binary in an Instagram livestream" without explicit comment on pronouns, and just continue to use feminine pronouns, with maybe a WP:COMMENT telling people not to change the pronouns to conform to how they think non-binary people should be referred to. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, now that I see the official website that I did not know about, I now fully support changing to female pronouns. That has to be taken into account per MOS:GENDERID. She has had more than enough time to update that site. If that site's continued use of she/her is not meaningful now because 'maybe it just hasn't been updated', then how long must we wait?
On a side note, if what you suggest was what happened, it wouldn't be the first time that someone unfamiliar with progressive youth culture inadvertantly said something that was taken to mean they are non-binary. See Talk:Billy Dee Williams#Pronouns. He said something about having a feminine side a certain way and as a result had the media tripping over themselves to say he was "genderfluid". That all was clarified eventually. Crossroads -talk- 04:35, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But it's not like this is a personal website that's updated by Utada. It's a generic record label site, and even says "© Sony Music Labels Inc. All Right Reserved." in the footer. The bio and updates were very likely written by some nameless, faceless Sony employee—after all, they only include details about single and record releases, lyric books, awards, etc. Music stuff. (Kind of ironic for a page named "BIOGRAPHY", no?)
I get that we generally consider official websites to be ABOUTSELF sources, but there's no indication that Utada is directly involved here. Now compare that to the official Twitter and Instagram accounts, which include plenty of selfies and personal notes, and generally appear to be run by Utada personally. Of course, it's entirely possible that everything's run by a team of nameless, faceless Sony employees—but the near-real-time updates of the social media accounts suggest a closeness to Utada that the website does not. Woodroar (talk) 07:57, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
it's not like this is a personal website that's updated by Utada I know that (you have no idea how intimately I know that... I recall pointing out the same thing with regard to whether a certain Japanese actor's talent agency's profile on him was a strong indication of his personal preference for how his name is romanized), but so far we have no reliable sources remotely connected to our subject herself that say she prefers different pronouns: just speculation by mostly straight, cisgender fans on various fansites saying that since she "is non-binary" she probably prefers this or that pronoun set (or -- while I doubt any of them would say this -- that she should prefer this or that pronoun set). Regardless of who curates these official social media profiles and official websites, they are the closest thing we have to our subject's personal preferences. It would be better if we had a neutral, third-party source (preferably a major newspaper or an academic work on LGBTQ+ studies or contemporary Japanese music) that discusses the discrepancy between how her website refers to her and how Wikipedia and various fansites like ANN refer to her, and the fact that her official Twitter account (no idea if it's actually our subject's Twitter account or an officially curated page actually operated by a nameless employee, although the fact that tweets are quite infrequent -- if someone was getting paid to tweet for me, I'd want them to do so at least once a week -- and the existence of this page indicate the former) notably does not specify "preferred pronouns" like seemingly the majority non-binary celebrities and many thousands of other Twitter users (seemingly mostly cisgender people showing solidarity), but at present it seems that we do not. We don't have any such source, and we don't even have anything closer to our subject (and therefore more likely to reflect our subject's personal preferences) than the above-linked website and Twitter profile; we just have third-party sources (seemingly mostly written by straight, cisgender, non-Japanese) speculating on how non-binary people like our subject "should" be referred to without any regard for our subject's actual personal preferences. (I'd be willing to accept that Utada's personal Twitter account, which seems to have been used no more than three or four times since 26 June, just hasn't been updated yet, but we don't have any evidence of that, and speculation would be inappropriate.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:36, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Off-topic and apropos of nothing since I took the article out, hence small text. Hilariously, I looked at the ANN article again, and I think the point of contention about its adequacy is... a copy-paste linking error. Because the first paragraph article quotes and describes the livestream, but links to the Mx. post. It weakens the source regardless, but I don't think the source was trying to purposefully claim "supporting Mx. === non-binary", they simply linked to the incorrect post. They were correctly attributing the non-binary claim to the correct Instagram thing, just apparently copied the wrong link. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 17:49, 17 August 2021 (UTC) [reply]
  • Not being that familiar with her work, I needed to Google this, and I may be missing some context (and it was a few years ago), but Utada apparently alternated between the gender-neutral (but somewhat more female than male) first-person pronoun wata[ku]shi (the most basic Japanese word for "I", but men also commonly use ore and boku, whereas women mostly use wata[ku]shi and its variants) and the female-only variant atashi to refer to herself here. ("私" might actually be read atashi, but "あたし" can only be read atashi; it's possible she only referred to herself as atashi.) Her official blog (which unfortunately has not been updated since 2017) has also used atashi,[13] and in 2014 her blog described her as her then-fiancé's "special person", with "person" being pointedly written as 女 ("woman").[14] These are, of course, likely out of date (certainly more than the above-linked English profile), but here is a tweet from last year in which she refers to the Japanese that her half-Italian son uses as "women's speech" due to her influence (he refers to himself as watashi rather than, presumably, boku). Lacking some explicit statement that she no longer identifies as "more female than male" and therefore prefers gender-neutral third-person pronouns in English, I don't think we should use gender-neutral third-person pronouns to describe someone who seems to use female-coded first-person pronouns to refer to herself. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:17, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • According to policy, though, we should not be paying attention to Utada's gender identity or pronoun choices prior to the nonbinary announcement. What do we have since then? Newimpartial (talk) 04:20, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'll have to re-watch the stream (and check for other videos, interviews, etc.) later. Japanese speaking Japanese (as opposed to westerners speaking pidgin Japanese based on English) generally use personal pronouns when specificity is required and otherwise omit them, which makes it difficult, Utada's official blog hasn't been updated since 2017, the Twitter page is ... well, it's not "bare", but there's a lot more images and videos than written words. That being said, Utada's "coming out" video said that she/they had felt non-binary for several years. Anyway, I was curious what you meant by "according to policy", so I checked both WP:NONBINARY and MOS:IDENTITY, both of which favour prioritizing the subject's most recent personal preference, which we don't know outside of making assumptions either that the subject's personal website and Twitter profile are waiting to be updated or that they are not waiting to be updated. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:54, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
And then I went and checked the Instagram livestream; she refers to herself as atashi multiple times in the fourth minute of the stream (i.e., immediately after coming out as non-binary). A person who uses female-only first-person pronouns to refer to themselves should not be assumed to prefer gender-neutral third-person pronouns unless we have a very specific statement that "X is how I refer to myself in Japanese, but I would prefer if people speaking or writing about me in English use Y". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:01, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Waiting for new information is not at all the same as making assumptions ... that the subject's personal website and TWitter profile are waiting to be updated. Rather, waiting for new informarion is the only way to avoid making assumptions one way or the other. We know the subject's latest self-declared identity, and unless you have seen something since then, we don't have a subsequent declaration on pronouns - we cannot assume that the prior pronoun usage does, or does not, now reflect the subject's current preference. We certainly cannot assume that because the subject already felt nonbinary before the announcement, that therefore nothing changed at the announcement so the pronouns should be assumed to stay the same. That really would be EXTRAORDINARY.
And just so that we are clear: I do not assume that the subject prefers non-gendered pronouns in English. What I pointed out earlier is that they/them are the correct pronouns in English when gender, or pronoun preference, is unknown. But I am fine to do without personal pronouns in the article entirely until we have more information. Newimpartial (talk) 05:05, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Someone changed the pronouns used in the article based on the assumption that "coming out as non-binary" meant that she doesn't want to be referred to by female pronouns.[15] I am not sure if this person was a Japanese-speaker who had seen the video in which she came out and repeatedly referred to herself with the female pronoun atashi, and was trolling (or had not stopped to think about the edit before making it), but it seems safer to guess that they were a non-Japanese-speaker who heard the portion of the stream that was in English (or read it on a fansite) and made an assumption. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 05:12, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is English wikipedia. In English, if you don't know a nonbinary person's pronouns, you use they/them; you do not continue with pre-transition pronouns unless you have a reliable source that does so. I haven't seen any RS in English since Utada's announcement that use she/her. Newimpartial (talk) 05:59, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What a BLP says about themselves as indicative of preference for gendered terms is relevant no matter what language they said it in. It factors in vis a vis MOS:GENDERID. The personal website is an RS incidentally. Crossroads -talk- 06:06, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You place great faith in the personal website, but even the work of the best publicists isn't as good a source as an independent RS. Honestly, editors should be holding back from OR and simply base the article on what the sources say. The only thing the subject gets to define for themselves is what gender they are and what pronouns they prefer - and I'm still waiting for a statement on the latter. For the rest, we should simply follow the sources. Newimpartial (talk) 06:10, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is English wikipedia. The fact that you do not speak Utada's native language and the language of most of Utada's songs, and therefore have to rely on dubious readings of Wikipedia articles to tell you how to interpret the way Japanese people refer to themselves, is irrelevant. This is a Japanese topic, so most of the reliable sources (and virtually all of the first-party sources) are in Japanese (and therefore do not use third-person pronouns anywhere near as frequently as English sources). We use pronouns for non-binary people in accordance with their stated preference (not some prescriptive "rule" that non-binary individuals "should" use one or another set of pronouns), without making assumptions one way or the other. Since our subject does not have a (clearly) stated preference, we need to weigh the evidence; said evidence includes the use of female-only first-person pronouns by the subject after having come out as non-binary. It is not Wikipedia's place to be telling non-binary people (and certainly not English Wikipedia's place to be telling Japanese non-binary people) how they "should" be referred to.
even the work of the best publicists isn't as good a source as an independent RS You have not located such an RS. We have an Instagram livestream given by the subject of the article and some fansites speculating on the "meaning" of said livestream. The closest I've found to a reliable third-party source is this, which mixes "she" with "their" and makes a general statement that Non-binary people often use the pronouns "they/them".
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 06:24, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure if this clouds the issue or makes it clearer. Utada mentions "not identifying that much with either being 'male' or 'female'", but says "I never felt like my gender was a disadvantage" and says that "what being a woman means to me" means "being myself". Needless to say, a promotional video for Shiseido is not the best source for this, but for me at least, I am getting a stronger and stronger impression that this is about our subject not wanting to be "defined" by gender labels, including the "non-binary" label that has attracted so much attention to this article in the last few weeks. At present, I think Utada underwent surgery after being diagnosed with a benign ovarian tumor, causing them to put promotional activities on hold (which to most readers who don't specifically know about Utada as "an example of a non-binary celebrity" probably looks, with no reference to gender identity until the end of the article and no reference to preferred pronouns anywhere, like it's referring to "Utada and her retinue") seems (by forcing our readers to stop and Ctrl+F "gend...", "non-bi..." or some other keyword) like shouting "Utada is non-binary", which definitely goes against the spirit of ... just about everything our subject has said on the matter. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:47, 19 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rewording Mx. sentence

Adding a break bc long section and also separate topic coming out of this. On what to do about the Mx. portion, mentioned way above, would it be possible to reword to separate the concepts? Because they feel both to be important as far as personal identity, just not necessarily related. There's likely a more elegant way to do this, but something like: "In discussing dislike for prefixes such as "Ms." and "Mrs.", Utada expressed support for the gender neutral prefix Mx. and also suggested Mys., a shortening of "mystery". On June 26, 2021, Utada came out as non-binary during an Instagram livestream."

Or, even leveraging the sentence about same-sex marriage: "On June 26, 2021, Utada came out as non-binary during an Instagram livestream. Utada has expressed support for same-sex marriage and for usage of the gender neutral prefix Mx., having also suggested a prefix Mys., a shortening of "mystery"." ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 16:50, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @TenTonParasol, I think either of those are good ideas for wording the sentence. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 19:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"prefix[es]" is incorrect. Utada used it, presumably either as a simple error or because Japanese equivalents like -san, -sama, -dono, etc. are classified as postfixes in Japanese. Can we say "titles"? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:01, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Titles" works fine for me. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 00:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also not a big fame of "came out"; Utada did not say "I am proud to announce that" or anything to that effect, and in Japanese この数年で知って「あっ、それなんだ！」って思ったけど、日本でどれぐらい広まっていることかわからないけど「non-binary」に該当するなって最近知ったので it sounds even less like "coming out". The currently cited secondary source is definitely not sufficient to solve this, since they clearly did not ask Utada for clarification and seem to go as far as misidentifying "non-binary" with being gay or bisexual (by referencing a song apparently written shortly after Utada gave birth to a child with her/their then-husband, to whom she/they would remain married for another two years). Could we say Utada self-identified as non-binary during an Instagram livestream instead? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:08, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We should just remove the "Mx." thing. The proposals above don't seem to change the implication, and frankly it is WP:INDISCRIMINATE trivia only sourced to Instagram and ANN, both poor sources. I also support the rewording you propose. Crossroads -talk- 04:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also, out of curiosity, what does the Japanese you are quoting translate to? Crossroads -talk- 04:23, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would support rewording to titles and "came out". Given there seems to be minimum consensus for that so far, I'm going to leave the sentences structured as is for now but swap those phrases and words. I'm also going to swap the ANN reference to a Kotaku article, bc the Kotaku article doesn't make the same mistake about gender identity vs. sexuality. I don't really think the Mx. thing is indiscriminate if at least because it's noted in multiple sources; the Instagram is lessened in how poor or questionable it would be otherwise given that the claim is about the subject made by the subject. I wonder if stronger Japanese-language sources exist? ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 17:25, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh! I'll also say that I want to retract my first rewording proposal. If consensus lands that the bit about Mx. should remain, I would prefer to reorder it so that the clause about support for same-sex marriage comes between them to further separate and add context for the discussion on titles were in the context of Ms. and Mrs. being related to martial status and sex. I support nixing Mys. from the article though. ~Cheers, TenTonParasol 17:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"mononym"?

I couldn't figure out how I should word this to cover both problems, but I placed the tag where it was because ... well, this strikes me as similar to this: I've been trying, in the above discussion, to avoid all pronouns pending a "consensus" on how we should refer to our subject, and so I've been overusing our subject's surname, but I don't think it's not a "mononym" any more than "Biden". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:43, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Associated acts

Considering the Wikipedia guidelines for associated acts contained in the infobox:
1. Should Teruzane Utada be removed? (cite: "producers, managers, etc." are in the "to be avoided" category)
2. Should Shiina Ringo be added since she and Utada have more than one single together?
3. Are there any other artists who would qualify under these guidelines?
--GimmeChoco44 (talk) 18:59, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Without weighing in on 2 or 3, 1 strikes me as having been included because he is an "act" that is "associated" (more visibly as the subject's father than as a "producer" or "manager", neither of which are "acts" to begin with) rather than a bona fide "associated act". If consensus isn't reached on 2 or 3, I'd say just remove the parameter. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:00, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Just noticed this, but Teruzane Utada lists both his ex-wife and daughter as "associated acts". Our subject's parents' professional relationship to each other is probably a bit greyer, but the article body says he composed the melodies for three of her songs, without mentioning his daughter. If this article is updated, the Teruzane article should be updated too. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:19, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Hijiri88: I think the Teruzane Utada content is a leftover from fan-based updates a decade ago. He was still listed as Utada's "attendant" until a recent change. -- GimmeChoco44 (talk) 07:54, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nationality/Citizenship?

Utada having been at one time theoretically eligible for US citizenship by virtue of having been born there is not a valid reason for asserting US citizenship in the article, and American (jus soli, expatriate) (in the infobox) reeks of WP:OR. The lead is even worse, linking to the article Japanese Americans (which is about Americans of Japanese ancestry) -- if our subject were under the age of 22 (and therefore likely possessing dual citizenship under the laws of both countries), hyphenating without linking to that article might be okay, but our article does not do that, and Utada lost the theoretical ability to possess dual citizenship 16 years ago. Utada is (universally?) considered to be a Japanese singer, and (while this is OR, it is part of a talk page comment and therefore explicitly permitted by policy, unlike the OR currently in the article) Japanese law does not allow people over the age of 22 to possess dual citizenship.

Does anyone have a source addressing these concerns? Because none are currently cited in the article.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:35, 20 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is a 2020 tweet by her stating she managed to register for the election. https://twitter.com/utadahikaru/status/1313979277843537921
Be sure to archive-url that; her article's source material is subject to an unusual level of link rot.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:00, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop mangling the reference citations

This is not rocket science. The |publisher= parameter is for THE PUBLISHING COMPANY, only, ever. The |work= parameter (and its aliases like |website=, |newspaper=, |journal=, |magazine=) are for THE PUBLICATION, regardless of medium. Do not put website names in |publisher=, either in title form (Salon) or domain name form (Salon.com). Do not add the |publisher= parameter when it is redundant, i.e. identical or nearly identical to the publication. Every time you garble a citation, which makes it emit incorrect citation meta-data as well as show up with incorrect formatting, you waste the time of other editors who have to clean up after you. At least 30% of the citations in this article were incorrect. That's not okay, especially since a couple of years ago I had already cleaned them up before. I.e., someone went through and mucked them up again. If you are using a script that incorrectly puts website names as |publisher=, stop using it, you are breaking things. Report the error to the author and ask them to fix it.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Feminine pronouns should be used

Evidence that Utada continues to use feminine pronouns (i.e. she/her) keeps increasing. Not only does the profile on her personal website still use feminine pronouns, but recent news items on there do as well:

  • Hikaru Utada recently has announced her first tie-up with a TBS drama series in four years. October 15
  • The last time Hikaru Utada marked the US Billboard charts was 2019, for her first time in the Billboard Hot 100... September 1

She has never said or implied her pronouns are they/them, and that her personal website uses she/her shows that that is what is in accord with her self-identification per MOS:GENDERID. The website would not use them if she did not. It is not true that being non-binary means a person uses they/them. Many non-binary people are open to any pronouns, or use "she/they" or "he/they" (meaning both are good); some may even just use the binary pronouns. Being non-binary also does not mean that one sees oneself as non-feminine.

The only arguments I can see against using she/her are original research or POV. All the evidence of self-identification as specified by GENDERID comes down on the side of she/her. The fact that she never said anything about pronouns also strongly implies she never desired a change from the she/her pronouns used in the past.

Also, I remember reading somewhere recently that in Japanese, even the first-person pronouns ("I", "me") are gendered. Hijiri88, since you know the language, any evidence from that angle? Crossroads -talk- 20:58, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Crossroads: There is decent coverage of Japanese first person pronouns at Japanese pronouns. It's more nuanced & situational than simply "women say A; men say B", but, as a simplification, yes, first-person pronouns are gendered. - Ryk72 talk 21:49, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Crossroads, do you have a reliable source stating that Utada uses feminine for themselves? If yes, you have a point but if not, then you do not. WP articles are supposed to use they/them when the preference of the subject is unknown and in question, which appears to be the case here. Newimpartial (talk) 23:11, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As I explained, it is not true that the preference of the subject is unknown. Pronouns are routinely updated when a BLP has only stated such on their verified WP:SPS. This is per MOS:GENDERID. The gender of the pronouns used for her in Japanese - first-person especially - also factor in to assessing this. Crossroads -talk- 23:54, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds like an OR argument to me. Do we have a statement of what the subject's preferred pronouns are in English? Or in Japanese, even? Newimpartial (talk) 00:40, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(Responding because I was pinged. But I think I've stated previously that I don't want to be involved in this discussion anymore. I found the previous "discussion", more at the WikiProject than here, highly unwelcoming, toxic, and upsetting. I do not seem to have made this clear enough the last few times, so I'll say it again now: I don't want to be pinged back to this discussion. I have been a casual fan of our subject's music for more than a decade, but I don't generally follow the personal lives of musicians I like [I didn't even know Sakai Izumi was dead until about six months after buying several of her CDs], so the flare-up on this page, seemingly lit by people who had never heard of Utada before June 2021, was somewhat surprising to me. I think we should respect the stated wishes of our subject, whatever those may be. But I DON'T want to get into an extended debate over it. Please do not ping me again.) Demanding an explicit statement from a Japanese pop-star regarding "preferred pronouns" in English seems like a bit much; if we applied the reverse standard, then hardly any self-identified non-binary who aren't British, Irish, Australian, American or Canadian could be assumed to use singular "they". The subject's official website continues to use female third-person pronouns, the subject uses feminine first-person pronouns in Japanese, and the subject has consistently self-identified as "a woman". Given this last fact in particular, it seems highly likely that the "non-binary" statements earlier in the summer were more about not wanting to be "defined" by any particular gender identity or marital status, and so using special language that essentially shouts at the reader that "this person is gender-neutral and does not identify as a woman and has requested not to be referred to as she/her" seems like it rather runs counter to our subject's wishes (even setting aside the fact that does not identify as a woman and has requested not to be referred to as she/her is OR). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:09, 25 October 2021 (UTC) (edited 00:53, 26 October 2021 (UTC))[reply]
Hijiri88, what is the source for the subject has consistently self-identified as "a woman"? I haven't seen any statements since the nonbinary announcement that would support that, but I might easily have missed something. Newimpartial (talk) 14:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Then you have not been paying attention.[16] So, for me, thinking about what does being a woman mean to me, it's just being myself.[17] (As an aside, I should have known that if you were not willing to respect our subject's wishes not to be defined in terms of gender identity that you would also not respect my wish not to be pinged.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:53, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't see how I am somehow "defining" the BLP subject in terms of gender identity, but anyway, anyone who would use a Shiseido promotional video as an expression of a BLP's gender identity (and do we even know when the video was filmed?) doesn't seem like a plausible judge of whether or not to use gendered pronouns. Newimpartial (talk) 01:02, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please stop shoehorning "BLP" into every comment as though that policy were somehow on your side?
As for I don't see how I am somehow "defining" the BLP subject in terms of gender identity I should note that I did not mention you or any particular user, but rather was referring exclusively to how our article is written. As far as I am concerned, an article on a human topic where every 20th word is the subject's surname and that includes awkward phrasing like Utada is bilingual and speaks English and Japanese fluently. On September 7, 2002, Utada married Kazuaki Kiriya, a photographer and film director who had directed several of Utada's music videos. He was fifteen years Utada's senior. is very much "defining our subject by her gender identity": if we wrote about her in the same terms as her official website, this quote would name her once or maybe twice, not four times. I do think you, and perhaps others, had never heard of Utada Hikaru (or any Japanese musician) prior to this summer, and came to this article just to argue about pronouns, but I didn't say that until just now in response to your putting those words in my mouth.
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:34, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As a passerby only slightly aware of the backstory here: So is this as simple as "The subject said that they're nonbinary, and people assumed that they no longer took she/her pronouns?" (ambiguous they there). If so, that seems a rather offensive reduction (both gender-wise and culture-wise) of what it means to be nonbinary. Even if an American were to proclaim "I'm the enbiest enby who ever enbied!", we'd be wrong to assume a change in pronouns based just on that. Or is there some context I'm missing? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 11:10, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Crossroads for one has indicated elsewhere that WP should default to they/them for people who announce themselves nonbinary (unless they are known to prefer gendered pronouns). So I don't see the urgency of making this a special case. Newimpartial (talk) 14:31, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well I disagree with that broader point, so I don't see this as a special case. We should not be in the business of second-guessing people's pronouns. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 17:15, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But if we aren't second-guessing, then what pronouns do we use for a person? Newimpartial (talk) 17:21, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources (ref). (Self-published statements about oneself are reliable provided certain criteria are met. Historically we've changed trans and nonbinary subjects' pronouns based on tweets or Instagram posts, so the same logic should apply for not changing pronouns (or changing them back).) Again, I'm not entirely up to speed on the underlying facts here, so I'm reserving judgment for if someone would like to dispute Crossroads' evidence. But if he's right on the facts, then yes, it seems like second-guessing to do anything other than use the pronouns the subject used for themself (ambiguous themself). -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 17:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Crossroads is definitely right on the facts here. Tamzin, my thoughts here nearly match yours. I have been reviewing other enby articles, though, and as far as I can tell the tweets/IG posts are usually definitive statements of pronoun preferences. Have you commonly seen posts that just incidentally use third-person pronouns? Firefangledfeathers (talk) 17:49, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I dispute that. The pronoun choices made by the publicists on Utada's "personal website" should not be interpreted as "stated preferences of the subject", as I and others have argued previously. As far as I know, the latest authoritative announcement we have was Utada's self-declaration as non-binary (with secondary RS coverage), and no subsequent retraction or declaration of pronoun preferences. So I don't see any justification for re-introducing gendered pronouns into this article, nor any reason to rush to do so. Newimpartial (talk) 17:56, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Where have I indicated elsewhere that WP should default to they/them for people who announce themselves nonbinary? I do not recall having done this. Crossroads -talk- 01:14, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It was this edit that led me to that conclusion, particularly Our language has "he" for male identities, "she" for female ones, and "they" for non-binary ones. That is all-inclusive.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Newimpartial (talk • contribs) 02:53, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder how the above quote relates to "non-binary women"? I note that you (Newimpartial, not Crossroads) have now twice ignored the August promotional video where our subject self-identifies as "a woman". Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:36, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Hijiri, the quote was my answer to Crossroads' question - it does not represent my view. And I don't have any preconceptions about what pronouns nonbinary women (or nonbinary men) should prefer. But for that same reason, I don't see how that promotional video has anything to do with the selection of pronouns nor, having read the English transcript surrounding the "woman" statement, do I see a gender declaration in it at all. Nor do I know when it was filmed, or how much the promotional video is intended to say anything in particular about the actual identities of the Shiseido-promoting individual in question. So I'm afraid I don't know what you're getting at, here. Newimpartial (talk) 03:33, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That comment of mine you quoted was explicitly in reference to neopronouns. It does not say what you think it does. And it does not negate Utada's self-preferences nor her evident status as both non-binary and a woman. Crossroads -talk- 04:55, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm pretty sure your comment does not say what youthink it does. But anyway, what "preferences" do you think Utada has expressed? Or do you mean the publicist's preferences? Newimpartial (talk) 05:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently you think that she is somehow not in control of her own website, and that a publicist in this day and age would actually disregard their client's gender identity. WP:EXTRAORDINARY. Crossroads -talk- 05:49, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's been four months since Utada's nonbinary announcement. We know she's somewhat fluent in english, and regardless of if you don't consider her official website her personal blog, she would have notified the publicists to update the site by now if she really did want to be known with they/them pronouns. I'm opening this up for an rfc; Tamzin's comments as a she/they NB supporting using Utada's last known pronouns (she/her) help break the POV mold, but it wouldn't hurt to have more opinions on this matter. FormalDude, can you explain why you changed this article to use they/them pronouns when there wasn't any non-OR or POV evidence? Unnamed anon (talk) 23:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

While I appreciate what you're getting at, I don't think my own gender is relevant here, except inasmuch as it informs my perspective that we need to get people's pronouns right. But if my participation—not as a nonbinary person, but as an editor who takes a hard line on pronouns—helps show that this isn't a purely POV-partisan issue, then good. To me, it's about a straightforward application of GENDERID, same as in discussions where I've been on "the other side" (cf. Talk:James Barry (surgeon)/Archive 2). That said, I'm still reserving judgment until those arguing for they/them have had a chance to make their case. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 23:37, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Unnamed anon: My edit summary explained the reason, but to further elaborate, the singular they is much more preferable to repeating the subject's name over and over simply because we don't want to misgender them. Using they/them has no implication of the person's gender (it is a gender-neutral pronoun) and as such, using it in this article would be correct regardless of what Utada's gender is. ––FormalDude talk 00:27, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - first of all, the last version of this article to which I contributed to was without pronouns, not a "they/them" version. So that is the version that I understood to have consensus. Second, my position is that gendered pronouns should not be added to the article without an express statement from the BLP subject endorsing or at least using gendered pronouns - and I haven't seen any such thing, only statements written by publicity people that do not seem especially rigorous. Has anyone seen anything else? Newimpartial (talk) 00:10, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Survey: Should the article use she/her?

  • Yes, per the above, including excellent points made by others. As explained, her personal website uses she/her, even very recently, and she uses feminine first-person pronouns in reference to herself in Japanese. It is not for us to second-guess this based on faulty ideas that non-binary people must use genderless pronouns. Pinging everyone who commented above so they can give more formal "votes" for the ease of the eventual closer: Newimpartial, Hijiri88, Tamzin, Firefangledfeathers, Unnamed anon, FormalDude. Crossroads -talk- 00:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree it is not for us to second-guess their choice of pronouns. I don't think anyone is arguing that non-binary people must use genderless pronouns though. I've suggested gender-neutral pronouns only as a compromise for a subject who's choice of pronouns appeared to be unclear. Weighing all the sources that've been presented thus far though, I do think there's now good policy-based reasons to justify using feminine pronouns. ––FormalDude talk 00:54, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Where does this STRAWPERSON come from that non-binary people must use genderless pronouns? I have certainly not argued that. My point was always that the threshold of evidence for a nonbinary person to be stated to prefer their pre-transition pronouns has to be reasonably high, and I haven't seen it met by the status quo of a publicist's web postings. Newimpartial (talk) 01:07, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes until new sources present themselves saying otherwise. Right now though, the sources suggest feminine pronouns. ––FormalDude talk 00:56, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, as long as our subject's official website does I initially found the argument presented above, that Utada is likely not personally involved in the upkeep of the English version of her official website, compelling, but given all the other evidence, such as the use of feminine first-person pronouns and the explicit self-references as "a woman", I think the best reading of the somewhat ambiguous "non-binary" statement (and the much, much more ambiguous statement about "prefixes") is that our subject does not wish to be "defined" or "tied to" any specific gender ID (something also reinforced elsewhere in the Shiseido commercial), and we should therefore avoid using unnatural language (such as skirting all use of personal pronouns or possessive determiners in reference to our subject, or using the singular "they" in reference to our [known] subject, etc.) that "draws attention to" a particular interpretation of our subject's statements in June and forces the reader to think about our subject's gender identity more than the various more important aspects of our subject. (BTW, this ping is fine.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:06, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. Anything I could add now is something that has already been said by myself or somebody else, but to make a long story short, there is much more reliable evidence that she still uses feminine pronouns, and the only "evidence" to do anything different has been a single statement that is related, but not mutually exclusive with the issue at hand. This endless cycle certainly deserves its own section on the lame edit wars page. Oh wait, I already put it there a month ago when I thought this was done. I may have to update it. Unnamed anon (talk) 06:40, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, barring new developments. I say that just to be clear that even the strongest consensus possible here would not prevent someone from changing this if Utada issues a clear statement requesting something other than she/her. I don't see any reason to think that the subject's publicity people don't speak for her. The main consideration of WP:BLP is to not do harm; it would be strange for Utada to feel hurt by us using she/her here, but also to not care when her own agents do so. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 08:21, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. Utada has made no indication that she prefers they/them, and absent any indication of that, the standard forms should be used. Wikipedia editors, regardless of how progressive they feel their position is, should not be imposing their views that the subject should be using those pronouns absent any indication that the subject has actually chosen to use those pronouns. TJRC (talk) 16:06, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. The media mostly use female pronouns. Binksternet (talk) 19:29, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Is this actually true, considering only media since this summer's announcement? I saw a lot of they/them or pronoun avoidance at the time of the announcement, and only one or two subsequent reversions to feminine pronouns. Is the evidence really so clear to you? Newimpartial (talk) 20:12, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • As I've said elsewhere, that doesn't really matter. The pronouns issue is only really a thing in English, and certainly not in Japanese. English-language media discussing this matter are sub-optimal, equating non-binary gender identity with lesbianism and doing what some Wikipedians are doing in assuming that all people who self-identify as non-binary "should" use gender-neutral pronouns. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. The subject's own current self-published material does so, as do the vast majority of third-party sources. The very fact that activistic sentiment is wilfully misinterpreting the guideline to suggest that anyone genderfluid must be referred to as "they/them" any time they've not made an explicit statement about their pronouns, even in the face of overwhelming evidence of their actual pronoun usage, is a clear indication that the guideline needs clarification to prevent such hijinks in the future. This is a WP:COMMONSENSE matter, but common sense is not actually common, so we have to write our rules around such failures, and prevent them being pointedly misconstrued and misapplied in ways that are rather opposite to their obvious intentions.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  19:38, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Why does the guideline need clarification here? The guideline favors she/her, seeing as they're the pronouns she uses (or her agents use) for herself. And, as much as I disagree with the arguments against that, I think we can still assume good faith rather than accuse anyone of advocacy or activism. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 20:03, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • If you're convinced by a profile page that has not been updated, the use of two pronoun by a publicist in postings (out of five since the nonbinary announcement), and the rather ambiguous transcript of the Shiseido announcement - if you're convinced that that evidence has revealed the pronouns the subject has chosen, then more power to you. I just can't see it. Newimpartial (talk) 20:10, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • Could you please stop spreading this has not been updated lie? You know it not to be true. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:51, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
          • How about trying WP:AGF, and see how that feels? I see no sign that this profile page has been updated since March. If you do, could you perhaps explain that to me? I don't see it. Newimpartial (talk) 00:09, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
            • How about trying WP:AGF, and see how that feels? I would say the same to you. You've been assuming that I'm lying to you about how the Japanese language works for months.[18] I see no sign that this profile page has been updated since March. Please stop playing word games. You know we are speaking of the "News" page on the same website.[19][20] Do you, or do you not, accept that Utada Hikaru's official English-language website has been updated since June, using the female possessive determiner ("pronoun" in Twitter speech) her in reference to Utada? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • SMcCandlish, the overwhelming evidence you speak of consists, as far as I can tell, of a profile page written prior to the nonbinary announcement that uses "she/her", and two new postings by the subject's publicist (out of, I believe, five since the announcement) that use "her" one time each. That, and a video transcript that alludes to, but does not explicitly affirm, gender fluidity. That is your overwhelming evidence, so I salute you for finding something definitive where I find mostly uncertainty. By the way, I never suggested that "they/them" should be used because the nonbinary announcement - I said that they could be used because the correct pronouns are not certain. Which is still my view, given the currently available evidence. Newimpartial (talk) 20:10, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • What on earth are you talking about with this "video transcript"? You can see the actual video of her clearly self-identifying as a woman. And there's also the consistent use of feminine first-person pronouns in Japanese (which you have been ignoring because you insist that I don't know what I'm talking about and you'd rather believe your own interpretation of an unsourced Wikipedia article). You might also be interested to know that(i) Utada's coming out statement included, in Japanese, a statement that she had "felt" non-binary for quite some time (i.e., if the English profile on her website had been troubling her during that time, changing it would be a priority) and (ii) "my gender" in that Shiseido video is consistently translated as "女性であること" ("being a woman") -- Utada is a powerful Japanese media figure, and would not be obliged to "comply" with directions to speak those words if she didn't want to, and certainly there would be hell to pay if they consciously mistranslated her. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes - If she identifies as female, has XX chromosomes, is somebody's daughter, etc. GoodDay (talk) 00:55, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @GoodDay: If she identifies as female Since someone is going to say this, I might as well: in June, Utada made an Instagram post about how she didn't want to use titles like "Mrs." or "Miss" that identify her by her gender and marital status. To me as a Japanese-speaker, this looks like a Japanese person being uncomfortable with English forms and wishing there was a simple gender-neutral -san that has nothing whatsoever to do with marital status. (The Japanese translation for "Mrs.", -fujin, is extremely rare by comparison.) But to many of her anglophone fans, this looked like a statement of non-binary gender identity, and she received a flood of SNS love for "coming out" as "non-binary". A little over a week later, she made another Instagram post (a livestream) in which she said that she "recently became aware that [she] fell under the category of what is called 'non-binary'" (my translation). Immediately, a large number of blogs (and "news sites" that are little better than blogs) started saying "Utada is non-binary. Non-binary people use gender-neutral pronouns like singular they. Utada made the announcement in livestream they posted on their Instagram account." Even though, in the four months since, Utada has made no statement that she prefers gender-neutral English-language pronouns, at least one very popular Japanese news site has continued to call her kanojo seemingly without incident, her official English website continues to call her "she"/"her" (even doing so in two recent news posts), and she has continued to publicly self-identify as "a woman" at least as often as she publicly self-identifies as "non-binary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hijiri88 (talk • contribs) 01:20, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    You've just used the pronoun "she" several times, to describe Utada. GoodDay (talk) 01:34, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Just gonna point out here that that's how English prose normally works. Using singular "they" to refer to a known individual, and avoiding all use of pronouns like this article currently does and like another document I was recently asked to proof-read IRL did, is a very strong way of saying, and drawing attention to the fact that, "this person does not identify as a woman", and so should be avoided in cases where the person has not made a statement one way or the other regarding English pronouns and English possessive determiners but has been very clear that they do not want to be "defined" by their gender identity. (I'm speaking generally, so in this case "they" and "their" do not refer to a known individual.) Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:10, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Why is that remarkable? Hijiri !voted for she above. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 01:46, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    As have I. GoodDay (talk) 01:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @GoodDay: What exactly do XX chromosomes have to do with it? -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 01:46, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Something to do with science. GoodDay (talk) 01:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Lol GoodDay, what possible knowledge do you have of their chromosomes? ––FormalDude talk 02:03, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It led me to side with the Yes side. GoodDay (talk) 02:07, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I think the AGF (or perhaps WP:PACT) interpretation of the above is that having "XX chromosomes" is slang for "biologically female" and that, if Utada were biologically male but identified as female, some other "very fine people" might have a problem with using female pronouns, but since she is both biologically female and self-identifies as a woman, no one should have a problem with female pronouns in this case. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:10, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    (edit conflict) I just realized that "biologically female" is almost as "Lol Hijiri88, what possible knowledge do you have" as talking about chromosomes, so I should clarify that she seems to have self-identified (and been widely referred to in reliable third-party sources) as both an "ovarian tumor" survivor and the (presumably biological) mother of a half-Japanese, half-Italian son. Side note, but her son, having picked up his Japanese from her, uses a feminine register in Japanese, a fact that she posted on Twitter earlier in the year. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:24, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    GoodDay, unless you've tested Utada's chromosomes yourself, you don't know their sex. Even if you did, it wouldn't help here, because the question is their gender, not their sex. Maybe read Sex and gender distinction. ––FormalDude talk 02:17, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@FormalDude: Are you talking to me? I hope I made this clear, but I was playing devil's advocate. Personally, I agree with you: I was just saying that some reactionaries might have a problem with your (and my) logic if it were being applied to a transgender woman rather than what we have here, which is someone who has been publicly identified as female since she was a child (her parents were both celebrities), survived an ovarian tumor, and has self-identified as a biological mother. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:24, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Shoot. I had an earlier EC with GoodDay, which I forgot about, and so your indentation looked like an error. Sorry about that. I think I've fixed it now. Or maybe you did. No idea. Too many ECs. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:28, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict × 4) "Or perhaps" indeed. To me AGFing means assuming that they're just trying to get a rise out of people because in their mind it proves some sort of point, rather than that they're trying to push an anti-trans POV. I do wish people wouldn't jump in to a discussion that's proceeding relatively civilly just to land a few rhetorical punches. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 02:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes until an announcement on social media about pronouns of choice and the official websites updating to reflect that. In Utada's main career when tens of millions of albums were sold, Utada went by "she/her" and was picking up awards as a top female singer, but that's now in the past. Also if Utada picks different pronouns than they/them, we may need to revisit that for standards. AngusW🐶🐶F (bark • sniff) 02:26, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Should a WP:SNOW close be issued? In one or two days, ten users gave yes votes and one hasn't officially voted but their statements clearly indicate no. Said user is arguing that there isn't enough proof that Hikaru still uses grammatically correct pronouns, which Crossroads and Hijiri have thoroughly debunked. IP's keep adding in that she changed to they/them pronouns, so either add a hidden note on both the top of the page and personal life section that she still uses real pronouns, or even better the post-June 2021 articles that refer to Hikaru with female pronouns. Unnamed anon (talk) 02:48, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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