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Ice Hockey Stub‑class

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Czech Republic Stub‑class

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• Dominik Halmosi → Dominik Halmoši
• Jiri Hanzlik → Jiří Hanzlík
• Jan Herman → Jan Heřman
• Martin Herman → Martin Heřman
• Jan Kovar → Jan Kovář
• Patrik Petruska → Patrik Petruška
• Tomas Pitule → Tomáš Pitule
• Petr Prikryl → Petr Přikryl
• Dan Ruzicka → Dan Růžička
• Jan Stransky → Jan Stránský

–Relisting.--Aervanath (talk) 01:48, 12 November 2011 (UTC) – Per WP:HOCKEY standard, WP consistency and common sense. HandsomeFella (talk) 20:30, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support all as nominator. HandsomeFella (talk) 17:08, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all: The proposed page moves fly in the face of the established Wiki-policies of WP:UE, WP:COMMONNAME, and WP:RS. Based on the comments made by the nom at the Ľubomír Višňovský RM, this RM appears to be POINTY. Dolovis (talk) 21:36, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  Rubbish. This RM goes along the WP:HOCKEY guidelines (as stated above), while it contradicts nothing at the guidelines indicated by Dolovis. He's just back in his old crusade to eradicate diacritics from wikipedia, a habit that has brought him to WP/ANI twice (at least), and where a page move ban was ultimately imposed on him for gaming the system. And this move was coming up regardless of Dolovis's RMs. Check my talkpage, where I have been preparing them for some time. HandsomeFella (talk) 22:04, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• As most members of WP:Hockey (certainly those participating in recent renaming discussions) know, WP:CONSENSUS establishes that "… participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope."  The fact that a tiny group of ESL editors have chosen to hijack WP:Hockey as their vehicle to re-write English Wikipedia into a foreign language doesn't mean that your little group can dictate to the English speakers of the world how to speak, spell, or write English.  In fact, some of the people who regularly oppose these attempts are WP:Hockey members, like Dolovis and others who repeatedly argue to prevent these unsourced moves to foreign language titles; so in fact WP:Hockey's policy doesn't even have anything like unanimous consensus within WP:Hockey.  But regardless, WP:Hockey's policies to ignore RS, which obviously conflict with consensus policy, are just as irrelevant as if WikiProject:Rush Limbaugh decided to establish a policy that RS are irrelevant and then created an article declaring Rush Limbaugh President of the United States.  A group of 111 registered members (50 of which are active) (i.e. WP:Hockey) don't get to dictate to, or override the consensus decisions of, 146,110 active editors (of 15,686,412 registered editors); certainly not to dictate that English no longer uses the English alphabet but will now be expanded to include symbols which are not English.
  As for everything after the first sentence of your post, I could have sworn I read somewhere that we were supposed to be discussing the work not the editor; it's one thing if you're talking about what you believe someone motivations to be and how that may be colouring their arguments, quite another to simply say "he's been to ANI"; a quick look shows me that your name appears a couple of times at ANI as well; is that also something the closing admin should take into account? — Who R you? Talk 06:28, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose all, as this is the English language Wikipedia & thus we should go with english sources. GoodDay (talk) 22:21, 4 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Petr Prikryl, Jan Stransky and Jan Herman get some coverage on Google News. But most of these players have never appeared in English-language RS and should be WP:AFD'd. As long as we are keeping them, we must follow the sources that we have, namely the box score sites. These sites give their names in the current form. Kauffner (talk) 02:04, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose WP:UE, WP:UCN, WP:COMMONSENSE, "Jan Stransky" is most definitely not "Jan Stránský" in English. This person has played in Canada, and therefore appears in Canadian English language press. [1][2][3][4][5] ; and we have the league page [6][7] ; even in French language press there are no accents in Canada [8][9][10] -- 65.94.77.11 (talk) 14:01, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment treating Jan Stransky the same as the rest of the players is wrong. Jan Stransky played in North America, so is clearly different from the other players listed. (assuming the bios of the other players are complete enough to not be missing any North American play experience) 65.94.77.11 (talk) 14:03, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  It doesn't matter if Stránský (or any one else for that matter) played in North America. That doesn't change his name. It would introduce massive inconsistency in wikipedia if Czech ice hockey players' names were spelled differently depending on whether they played in North America or not, not to mention that that would be a totally rediculous rule. The only sustainable position is that we spell people's names correctly, to the best of our knowledge. HandsomeFella (talk) 17:06, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  WP:OFFICIALNAME , it doesn't matter what their original name is, it only matters what their WP:COMMONNAME in WP:USEENGLISH is. 65.94.77.11 (talk) 07:21, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support all. It doesn't matter if any of these players played in North America, their names and surnames contain diacritics and that's it. We do not and will not change hundreds of article names just because some players worked abroad. All mentioned articles don't use diacritics only because Dolovis created them as such in order to pursue his POINTy agenda. - Darwinek (talk) 19:44, 5 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • No it's not, it has to comply with WP:UE and WP:UCN, or you have to apply a WP:IAR on it. If they played in North America, it's likely they have press coverage from North America, press coverage in North America is usually English. Per WP:RS, WP:UE, WP:UCN, we can therefore find the commonly used form in English reliable sources, and that is the name that is supposed to be used by WP:POLICY. If you want a different name from that you, you need to get a WP:IAR consensus. 65.94.77.11 (talk) 04:42, 6 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support all the names are not English and you can't make them English when you remove the accent marks. Tell me what is Hanzlik, Herman, Kovar, Petruska, Pitule, Prikryl, Ruzicka, Stransky in English?? Just a nonsensical sequence of letters. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 09:47, 7 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support all Removing the diacritics looks ridiculous. So what if any English-language newspaper has bad keyboards lacking keys for inputting diacritics? Using a bad keyboard doesn't make anything more English than using a good keyboard. These people do not have any English names. --Stefan2 (talk) 01:07, 8 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  Comment/reply: These people do not have any English names. Really? The sources used in the articles use their English names. Specifically on point is the policy of WP:UCN which says that we are to use, for the article title, the name that is most frequently used to refer to the subject in English-language reliable sources. That is how the articles are currently named, and per established policy, that is how they should remain. Dolovis (talk) 03:54, 9 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support all Their names include diacritics and the above policies that are mentioned do not say remove all diacritics. -DJSasso (talk) 13:02, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  Comment: This is an RM to add diacritics, not remove them. Dolovis (talk) 14:06, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Fully aware of that. But opposing the move is the same thing as trying to remove them. So the statement is still accurate. -DJSasso (talk) 16:52, 10 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support all per supporters above and per my comments for other RMs (example, example). User:Vejvančický will agree with me that those are nonsensical sequences of letters in Czech too. For example "Kovář" is a (popular?) surname deriving from the word for "smith", but "Kovar" doesn't mean anything. --Theurgist (talk) 00:46, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: And yet interestingly, both of your examples were part of a 12 article multi-move which moved the article titles away from diacritics over to their English form; or were you intending to make sure the closer recognized that the consistent action to take here would be to turn down this request? — Who R you? Talk 14:39, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't quite understand this. There I opposed the removal of diacritics, here I am supporting the addition of diacritics. To me, it makes little difference whether a diacritics-related discussion concerns Czech sportspeople, Vietnamese entrepreneurs, Hungarian villages or Swedish enterprises. My posts on those two talk pages address the diacritics issue from a much more global perspective. If you'd like, I can retell them here, but I don't think this would be of much use. And, by the way, I think it'd be just great if someone cited a reliable source stating that "taking the diacritics away from the name of a random person/place/institution/whatever produces its English form". This somehow reminds me of a Facebook group I came across a while ago: "Putting le in front of a word makes it French". --Theurgist (talk) 23:47, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • I was pointing out that the arguments you made in the linked RMs, similar to the ones you make here, were not sufficient to sway the judgment of the closing admin there, and should be equally unsuccessful here.  In other words, just as your arguments there, to keep articles misspelled in a foreign language failed, so too should your arguments here to move articles to a non-English foreign spelling.  In short, any argument made that English Wikipedia should use something other than English for its article titles should fail. — Who R you? Talk 06:52, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        P.S.  Did they not even try to make the word lé to make it appear more foreign?  Incroyable, ces enfants stupides!
        • Let them fail, I no longer care that much. Comments like those are indeed more suitable for centralised discussions than for talk pages for random articles, and I should have considered choosing venues accordingly before placing such arguments and elaborating on them. Never mind, they have been repeated over and over again and elaborated on further by other users, as the issue has been thoroughly discussed elsewhere. As it's going, one will soon be able to toss a coin in attempt to come up with a guess whether one will find a given article title diacriticised or formatted sans diacritics. And I, like many other visitors actually, don't see the diacritics as some useless decorations of letters, which they actually really aren't, but rather I'm aware that they bear certain meanings and significances which could sometimes be lost with their omission, and I do or try to understand most of them. And still there are English-language publishers that prefer sticking with exactness and preserving diacritics when possible. For instance the National Geographic Society would refer to the Czech capital with the established English exonym "Prague" and not with the native designation "Praha" in its materials, but would cite names like (for example) "Uherské Hradiště" or "František Dřížďal" in the Czech way exactly. Yet, nobody accuses the NGS of publishing their materials in Czenglish (nor Franglais, Denglisch, Turklish or anything) instead of proper English. --Theurgist (talk) 02:18, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose all – The relevant WP policy sections are transcluded below.  The basis for this RM is "Per WP:HOCKEY standard…"; comparing WP's consensus approved policies, with WP:Hockey's private policies, it is clear that the two do not match; as part of the citation from WP:CONSENSUS (in the section below) states: “…unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope.”  In other words, WP:Hockey's policies are, as a matter of WP policy, invalid here, since, as we all know, diacritics are a contentious topic which there certainly has never been broad community support for WP:Hockey to establish its own policies on.  Therefore, simply on that basis and from the reasons given in the RM itself, there's nothing to support any of these moves.  The RM also mentions WP:Consistency (checking that link will lead you to a historical reference WikiProject page that says articles should be consistent in style and fact), meanwhile, WP:CONSISTENCY will direct you to the beginning of the Manual of Style (strange how inconsistent those two links are ); but if the argument is strictly for consistency, I know for a fact that Marek Zidlicky and Milan Jurcina were both recently moved to non-diacritic forms; so, in the interests of consistency, I'll argue that the 10 articles above should equally remain without diacritics.

Then lastly the move request gives a reason of WP:COMMONSENSE; and while I'm not quite sure what their common sense is, I trust most (and with a little luck all) of my statements will adhere to the concept.  Realistically, taking a look both at the request itself, and the support of the group of WP:Hockey group members (whom I assume are the ones that collectively nominated these moves), there's nothing to actually backup making the moves; and by nothing, I mean that they don't even offer a single page, or web site, let alone a reliable source (which is, I believe, what policy requires for a successful RM move), to demonstrate that they haven't made a bunch of horrible typos here.  I certainly acknowledge that (at least most of) the 6 supporters of this move generally present themselves as infallible possessors of the total sum of all knowledge on all things Czech; and I don't doubt for a moment that they know far more about that region of the world than I likely ever will; but even assuming that I grant that they are whole incapable of error, anything that is strictly their knowledge is, by definition, OR; and therefore, not an acceptable basis for a move like this (or really for anything in the Wikipedia world).  Where is their, at least basic, proof that their proposed spellings are any less inaccurate than they claim the current spellings to be?  Where is their WP:V evidence that allows us to even know that the destinations they suggest are the right ones?  Alright, enough WikiLawyering (because I truly hate non-wiki ones) but the fact is that this request amounts to a statement equivalent to "Just trust me, I know what I'm telling you to do is right."; and to my mind that pretty much defines what Wikipedia isn't, and goes against the very core of WP's methods, RS, consensus, V.

But then to the matter of spelling of the names themselves; (as listed below) WP:EN, WP:UCN, WP:DIACRITICS, and WP:UE all boil down to one thing, in determining article titles, en.WP follows English sources to use the most common English name for an article.  Clear, straight forward, unequivocal really, and definitely not what the policies of WP:Hockey say (and so WP:Hockey's statement of policy simply doesn't count for anything).  The Czech and other foreign editors supporting this request all seem to be under the impression that they can dictate to the English speaking world how to spell things in English; but the fact is, in North American, when someone moves to North America, we drop the diacritics in their names; and my proof of that is the English RS, which is what we follow to determine the names of articles on en.WP, and, to the best of my knowledge, all of these articles currently have the most common English names as determined by the best available English RS.  And if the group of 6 here want to dispute that, they do so by providing English RS to prove that I'm wrong and that the most common English spelling is what they are claiming.

Their statements that they look silly or that they're just a string a nonsensical letters simply demonstrates that these non-English editors have forgotten (or never understood) for whom en.WP is written; this is not esl.WP for foreigners to practice up on their English (the closest thing we have for that is simple.WP); this is not enBITCH.WP where the English peoples of the world get bitch-slapped around by those who want to tell us what to do; this is not earth.WP or esperanto.WP where the planetary consensus of what an English-like language should resemble has meaning; this is en.WP, where we write in English, using the English alphabet, to provide a (hopefully) accurate encyclopdia, for free, to the English speaking people of the world; and, in the interests of global harmony, where we permit non-English peoples to participate in (not only their own language's WP), but in ours as well; but make no mistake about it, don't forget even for a moment, this is our English Wikipedia written for the English speaking world, and the English speaking world are the ones who will determine what the policies are, just like the English media will determine what English spelling is.

These foreign editors apparently fail to understand that, if these words look funny to them without diacritcs, they look a hundred times more asinine to English speakers; a line over a "y" or an apostrophe over an "r", or changing the dot on the "i" to an ever so slightly different mark is as meaningless to us as Sanskrit is to them; a page full of diacritics is, to an English reader, the equivalent of spilling something on the paper so that there are dots all over and it is more difficult to read; nothing more.  And if they believe otherwise then they really have no sense of reality on this topic.  The fact is, they aren't claiming that they want to move these articles to the correct English names, their argument is that English countries don't have the right to drop the diacritics from peoples names, and therefore it doesn't matter how we spell their names, the important thing, from the 6's POV, is that these 10 are Czech and therefore English must expand its alphabet beyond the 26 letters it uses; these WP editors have decided that English is now comprised of, no less than 33 characters (and I assume they'll be letting us know in short order how much bigger they'll be making it next time around).  Non-English WP editors don't get to dictate to English WP editors what our policies are; non-English citizens that live in foreign countries certainly don't get to dictate to English countries how they spell things; and neither English nor non-English WP editors decided anything even remotely like this, we have absolute policy in place to cover these situations, and that is that we don't decide these things, we follow the RS; and on English Wikipedia, that means we follow the English RS, even on the spelling of Czech names.  And my standard apology; sorry I'm so long winded. — Who R you? Talk 13:22, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose The closing admin should be advised to delete for lack of notability rather than move. After looking at most of the articles that are the subject of this RM, it appears to me that the thing they have in common is to fail Wikipedia:Notability and must be removed. These articles belong in one or more of the wikipedias written in the many Eastern European languages. As best as I can determine (which is tough because this RM page is absent germane evidence of any sort upon which to make proper judgements about anything) all these players are Czech professional ice hockey players and have not played on a North American team nor played against a North American league. The external links of most “value” take readers to foreign-language articles like this. So…

  To User:Who R you?, I suggest you contact a bureaucrat and ask him or her to assign a good admin to speedy-close this RM since it is predicated on a nuance that is beside the point. Then I suggest you begin an RfC on this page to delete this and the other articles for lack of notability. I also suggest you delete or strike the below rules since they are inapplicable to the root issue here. It appears there is an avid crowd currently active the last few months who have been responsible for unwise things over on WP:HOCKEY and it is just getting them into hot water. Per WP:LOCALCONSENSUS, Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. That phenomenon has clearly taken root on our hockey-related articles if they think these players meet Wikipedia’s requirements for WP:NOTABILITY. Greg L (talk) 17:04, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree with both you and Kauffner that all of these articles should likely be AFDd as non-notable; should you request one, I will (barring other sources proving otherwise) support deletion under WP:N and a lack of RS.  Meanwhile, so long as this RM remains open, I think it's important to argue the separate points which oppose these moves; specifically the complete lack of any kind of backup to support the move.  And I also have to agree with Kauffner that, so long as these articles do still exist, they should be spelled with the only spelling supported by any kind of English sources, that is, spelled without diacritics; I'm not aware of any English source which spells these names with the diacritics let alone a reliable one.  As for the transclusion of the naming policy citations in the section below, if you really think they're a problem, please feel free to remove the template; but as long as the RM's still active, I figured having all relevant policy segments in one place made it easier to review and discuss; but go ahead and remove if you disagree. — Who R you? Talk 06:54, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support all. Per WP:BLP, "We must get the article right." The current titles are riddled with errors ("Common errors of grammar are: comma splices, mixing tenses, using “however” as a conjunction, confusing “its” and “it’s,“ confusing “that” and “which,” and not putting in diacritical marks in foreign words or names. [emphasis mine]"). WP:COMMONNAME does not advocate for common spellings and points out that inaccurate names, even if most common, are often avoided. WP:UE gives good examples of anglicized names, but none exist here. Per dictionaries and authoritative style manuals, persons do not get anglicized names by having their names appear in the media without diacritics; this is common but improper English. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and incorporates elements from other reference works. Those elements include the consistent and correct spelling of foreign proper names. This indeed is the project-wide de facto policy. Prolog (talk) 20:18, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, I agree with you this time—sorta—Prolog. You seem to be fond of alleging the existence of facts that amount to “the god’s all agree with me that this is the way things *really* work, and, though I can’t point to these gods, they exist; believe me.” Pointing to WP:HOCKEY, which this month is the product of a local cabal that is disinterested in following fundamental principles that guide Wikipedia is proof of nothing. Your arguments hadn’t worked at all in the past when we were discussing Czech players who came to the U.S. to play in the NHL. Why? Because the names of those players had been effectively Anglicized through frequent and familiar use in most-reliable, English-language RSs. But your arguments desires are well-grounded in this case and I was going to !vote “support” along with you on this one. That is…

    …Until I realized why these players’ names haven’t been Anglicized: they’re utterly and profoundly non-notable in the English-speaking world. The body text of the first one has this: [Is a] Czech professional ice hockey goaltender. He played with HC Plzeň in the Czech Extraliga during the 2010–11 Czech Extraliga season. One editor, User:Dolovis, created all ten articles over a span of 14 hours. But it couldn’t be clearer than all ten are not the least bit sufficiently notable to merit inclusion in a general-purpose English-language encyclopedia. Ergo, “support” !votes are irrelevant now since I expect this RfC will soon be closed and we’ll move onto the issue of why the world they belong here at all. Greg L (talk) 21:24, 11 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support all. I'm a member of the vast majority of English-speakers who don't understand Czech; but I do know the difference between ‹c› and ‹č› and I want to know which it is so that I have a chance of pronouncing it more correctly. There presumably exist readers who can say the same of Vietnamese, and I want them to have the same benefit even if the diacritics are meaningless to me; I am not harmed by seeing the funny squiggles, now that Unicode fonts are generally available. If Wikipedia excluded everything that a substantial number of English-speakers don't understand, I wouldn't bother with it. —Tamfang (talk) 08:10, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't think anyone's suggesting that the body of the article shouldn't contain the national spelling, in whatever language; rather, the issue is whether the article titles on English WP match what the verifiable English RS present as the most common English spelling (although in this particular group of articles there doesn't seem to be much RS to base a decision upon). — Who R you? Talk 09:47, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Yeah, I agree with an important point User:Who R you? made, above. I wrote earlier that I was preparing to !vote “support” because I couldn’t find a verifiable English-language RS that spelled any of these players’ names with diacritics. But that might not be the correct test to support. A galactic lack of English-language RSs either way suggests that there is a greater shortcoming to these ten articles: the only readers stumbling across them will have clicked on a hyperlink from elsewhere in the project. Other than the editors active in this subject, no English-speaking reader will be typing any of these players’ names into the search field. These articles would not even find themselves in a Slavic-language print encyclopedia; the only place one would properly find articles about these players is in Slavic-language hockey magazines and (periodically) in Slavic-language newspapers. The en.Wikipedia does not exist to give Czech hockey players bragging rights so they can tell some gal in a bar “Anglická Wikipedia článek o mně dostane osm návštěv denně.” Greg L (talk) 18:45, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support all: Per WP:COMMONNAME, "ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources". This is one of those situations. By removing diacritics, the names become inaccurate. Although non-diacritic usage is more common in North American media, this spelling should be avoiding by the simple virtue that it is inaccurate. An 'á' is different from an 'ǎ', and both are certainly different than an 'a', yet arguments are being made that an letter that has a diacritic mark above or below the 'a' can simply be removed. This is unquestionably wrong, and WP:COMMONNAME supports that argument. – Nurmsook! ^talk... 18:33, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• While the 'á', 'ǎ', and 'a' may all be different in foreign languages, for example Estonian, but the fact is that only one of them is a part of the English alphabet.  Meanwhile, you seem to have confused the words "ambiguous or inaccurate" with "English"; you might have noticed that en.WP has an article on Czechoslovakia, not an article on "Československo"; the reason being that one is English and one isn't.  The Czechoslovakia article does note the foreign language spelling of it, just as the Estonia article does, just as this one does, just as they all should, but none of the others replaces the English titles with the foreign language names; that occurs on the appropriate foreign language Wikis.  None of the consensus policies state that article names should be spelled using foreign, non-English symbols. — Who R you? Talk 00:51, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• You're talking about apples and oranges. Czechoslovakia is the direct English translation of Československo. That is not a case of simply removing diacritics; that's a full on translation. Using the logic established by those trying to remove diacritics from people's names, however, would result in Československo being translated to English as Ceskoslovensko, but that is incorrect. There is no direct translation of, say, Jiří to English as there is for Československo. Do you see what I'm saying here? I completely agree with you that Československo should be written as Czechoslovakia, but that is an entirely different case, in the same way as Göteborg is rightfully spelled here as Gothenburg. Those are both translations, not just a simple removal of diacritics. – Nurmsook! ^talk... 17:48, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• And in every case, we Wikipedians do not make that decision; the English RS do for English Wikipedia.  That is en.WP's consensus policy.  If you think English RS are misspelling names, feel free to start a movement to compel them to change; but reality is they probably won't because, given the two options of either a) us English people choosing a completely different spelling for a name in order to produce roughly the same intonation as it would carry in some foreign tongue, and b) us simply dropping the diacritics and leaving it to the foreigner to decide if they'd like to pursue having an alternative English spelling as their most common English name, we (as in English society through the approved of actions of our press and other RS) choose option b) and leave it to the individual to decide (as many do) to opt for a different spelling if they want one.  You may have noticed that I didn't provide an option c), to add a few hundred extra symbol and sound combinations to the English language, because the fact is that we (native English speakers in English countries) aren't offering that option.
  If you would care to provide some RS that indicates that any of these people have requested a different Anglicized form, other than the standard English practice to simply drop the diacritics, please feel free to provide a reference and I will (as I suspect everyone else will, subject to verifiability and reliability of the source) support you in proposing a move to that English name; but the fact is that, until and unless the individuals in question opt to contact the appropriate publishers and request that their names be published in some other form, the standard English practice (as demonstrated by the normal and customary practice of the English RS) is to simply drop the diacritics.  Obviously most of the ESLers here WP:Just don't like it, but that's simply too bad, that is the way English society works (as you are fully aware, having lived in BC & Ontario).  When you go to work or school you don't see people's names written with all kinds of non-English symbols all over the place; that isn't because most of the immigrants coming from non-English countries don't use non-English characters in their names, that's because when they move to an English speaking country like Canada, the US, (and I still assume for the most part England, despite one or two known examples where that isn't the case), they quickly come to realize that we (native English speakers) are unwilling to double/triple/quadruple the size of our alphabet to accomodate them.  They either drop the diacritics, make clear that they have a preferred Anglicized spelling of their foreign name, or (quite commonly) adopt a highly Anglicized form which vaguely relates in some way to their original foreign name.
  The message is, you (meaning they) don't come to an English country and think you're going to dictate how English is spelled; the response to that is a general and resounding "Fuck off; if you don't like it, there's the door! →".  And that message goes double for people who don't even leave their country but instead think that because they have internet access in their foreign land they can dictate or harass us into re-writing our language to suit their nationalistic sensibilities.  You (Nurmsook) live here (in Canada) so you know that we are unbelievably accommodating to foreign cultures in terms of allowing them the freedoms to live and express their own cultural beliefs and practices; but, that ends abruptly when they think they are going to dictate that the English (or here English/French) cultures must surrender their own beliefs and practices to these guests.  There is a difference between what they choose to write or speak in their own language when they are amongst those who share the same language/culture/beliefs/whatever, and them telling us (the English majority to whose country they have chosen to move) how to adapt our society and language to suit them.  (And personally I like Tim's much better than Starbuck's; but that's another battle which you & I could hopefully fight peacefully over a couple cups of coffee! )  G'day; eh! — Who R you? Talk 23:40, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• This is great and all, but it still doesn't mean it's right. Regardless of what publishers choose to do, and how people choose to react to those publishers, a name is a name, and that is how I view this debate. I have interpreted policy to support my arguments in the same way the other side has theirs. I am well aware that this diacritics debate will likely go on forever. And for the record, because your response seems to assume I am a foreigner or ESL, I was born and raised in Canada. I just have dual citizenship through family lineage. English is my first language, but I still believe that diacritics should be in names. I think it's a little presumptive to assume that all ESL people "don't like it", I'm sure many are fine with having no diacritics and others use policy to support their argument. And as for the last comment, I'll gladly buy you a Tim's coffee if you cover my Starbucks, it's really starting to hurt my student wallet ;) – Nurmsook! ^talk... 00:41, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, regarding your last comment, that's one of the problems, IMO, with Starbucks; why pay twice as much for something that isn't worth it; mostly because of the attitude (and I'm not saying necessarily you) that la-dee-da, look at me, I'm drinking Starbucks, I like to pay twice as much as something's worth so that I can feel special spending ten minutes deciding to order a half-caff mocha latte with a twist (or whatever) when the majority of us are just looking for a hopefully good-tasting cup of coffee, at a reasonable price, as quickly as possible so that we can get back to doing whatever it was that we were doing.  But, I guess, as with this topic, we simply don't agree.
  And as for your argument that it doesn't matter what the publishers choose to do, what's important is what you, and the other 11 people on this page that support this move think is the right spelling, that quite simply isn't the way Wikipedia works, as you well know.  It doesn't matter in the slightest what you think, or for that matter what I think, what's supposed to matter is what the English sources do; and the fact is that, for those that we have any information about here, what the English sources do is that they drop the diacritics, as I would say they rightly should.
  And if you don't think they should, the proper thing to do is to start a campaign to get them to change their policies and start writing their publications in foreign languages using foreign alphabets because we've invented Unicode which gives them that ability.  I pretty sure you won't get anywhere; but that fact doesn't mean that the proper course of action is therefore to start a campaign to move en.WP to foreign language spellings.  We, English speakers, of which you are one, drop diacritics in our country; if you think that's wrong, start an Facebook movement to change it, but I think most people, a lot of whom couldn't care less about Facebook and would rather protect their privacy rights than sell all their personal stats for the right to be friends with a bunch of people who most of them have never met, but if that's your thing, use that to stimulate social change, if it's not your thing use another method, but Wikipedia is not a valid method to promote your opinions about whether English societies should use diacritics; Wikipedia simply follows what the RS do, so if you have references to some RS that says that all 10 of these names are spelled in English with diacritics, then please provide provide the links; if, on the other hand, your entire argument is that you really think that they should be used because their pretty, or cool, or make you feel smart, or because they're used in foreign languages, or whatever, this isn't the place to have that conversation. — Who R you? Talk 02:15, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose: Each proposal should be made on its own merits, on its own talk page. That some (but not all) of the players have played in North America, and would reasonably be discussed in English-language sources, is a serious drawback to a bundled move. That some (but not all) of the players may fail of pertinent notability standards is likewise a serious drawback to a bundled move. I certainly believe that a hockey player who has not been discussed in English-language sources should have his article titled rendered as is customary in his home language (although I question whether such a player would meet notability standards), and would be happy to comment on the same on a case-by-case basis.

  That being said, I Support in the case of Halmosi, whose talk page this is, who having played in the Extraliga satisfies WP:NHOCKEY, and who has never played in North America. Ravenswing

• Oppose Why would we want to go against common sense and wikipedia COMMONNAME? This is an English wikipedia not a Serbian or Swedish wikipedia where they use a non-English alphabet. Just make sure that in the article body the mother tongue alphabetic spelling is shown and we're set to go. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:19, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• The great part about COMMONNAME that those that keep spouting it fail to read is the part that says "ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." Simply removing the diacritics is an error thus per common name should not be used even though it is the most common version. If they were properly translated that would be a different story and I would have no issue. But simply dropping the diacritics is a common error. -DJSasso (talk) 12:45, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Exactly. Examples of such translations are Munich for München, Copenhagen for København, Cologne for Köln, Gothenburg for Göteborg, etc. But personal names are generally not translated. Ergo the diacritics should not be dropped. HandsomeFella (talk) 20:29, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support all; generally speaking, the names with diacritics are more accurate; they are supported by sources. I respect the stances of those who argue that this is an "english" encyclopædia; but being an encyclopædia it covers some subjects with foreign connections, and should aim to cover them accurately; if the real name is readable, show the real name, instead of mashing it into an arbitrary subset of the characters available to us. Those angered by the sight of diacritics really ought to stop reading articles about foreign subjects - it's no good for your blood pressure. bobrayner (talk) 17:17, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Of course, generally speaking, the names with diacritics are not English.  And while I fully agree that WP:V does relate to things being supported by sources; however, linking the phrase supported by sources to the policy of WP:V seems more like WP:GAMING to me than anything else.  And when one looks at the preceding conversation, one might perhaps notice that the only people citing actual sources are the ones opposing these moves.  The rest of the people here all argue to ignore the RS and ignore WP Policy because foreign countries spell things differently in foreign languages; duh!  That's why we speak English, because we speak English; if we spoke French, or Swahili, or Czech, then we wouldn't be asking to write these names in English, but since this is English Wikipedia, it seems like a good idea to follow the consensus policies of en.WP, to follow the English RS, and to name these articles in English (with the appropriate indication of the foreign spelling); and of course, the French, Swahili, Czech, and all the rest are welcome to spell things in their own languages on their own wikis.  And no, I don't agree that I should have to avoid a certain percentage of English Wikipedia if I don't want to see articles written in foreign languages; how about we just follow policy and follow the English sources.  And of course, if you'd like to provide a link to actual sources that show that these names have been spelled in English by English RS the way that you're trying to have them named in en.WP, then by all means provide an actual link, not some slimy scumbag trick to imply that what doesn't exist really does, because anybody can provide a link to the 60-foot tall – 4,000 pound Duck or Irrefutable evidence of Bigfoot.  But reality is that there is no such RS because in English we don't spell things with diacritics and therefore there are no English RS with such a spelling; so instead you have to use deception to imply that you, and everyone else pushing this move, isn't really just making all this up and hoping that the admin won't look to closely at what you claim. — Who R you? Talk 00:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support all as more accurate, per WP:COMMONNAME. --OpenFuture (talk) 17:58, 14 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• The relevant portions of WP:COMMONNAME (a.k.a. WP:UCN and WP:NCCN) are listed in the section below.  The consensus there is to use the name most common in English sources.  Kauffner and IP:65.94… have provided links demonstrating the most common English spelling (not surprisingly without diacritics) earlier in the conversation.  The only common spellings of these names with diacritics are, of course, foreign language spellings; but consensus policy is to use the most common spelling as determined by the English RS.  Just what does the version of WP:COMMONNAME that you're reading say?  Is it the section that says that because User:OpenFuture is Swedish, and his/her language uses diacritics, English should too; because I can't seem to find that section in my copy. — Who R you? Talk 00:56, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Actually Common name says "ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." If these were correct translations of the names to English I would agree with you and say use the translated version, but simply removing diacritics the vast majority of the time is a common error. And per commonname we should not use the name even if it is the commonname when it is inaccurate which is what it would be if they were simply stripped. -DJSasso (talk) 02:35, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support I don't see any real established usage in English for these players. (Possibly Slansky, but he did not gain any real notability in North America) I cannot see how you can claim any kind of established English names for these players. So how could you determine an English common name? Really, don't know how you can even support these articles in the English wikipedia? Hard to support, and localized notability. (No offence intended) ʘ alaney2k ʘ (talk) 00:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• It certainly seems that the standard practice with these things is, more often than not, no amount of proof is enough for an article originally named in a foreign language to be moved to English and that, for any article existing in English, a lack of RS is sufficient reason to move them to foreign spellings.  Seems like quite the double-standard.  As for the reality that these articles shouldn't exist at all in English Wikipedia, I agree totally; but the fact is that, while the policies regarding names of articles does say that we follow the English RS (a consensus policy which it seems is simply ignored at present), the policies for the notability sufficient to keep an article in Wikipedia is that someone somewhere once did a story about them, so the fact is that for a Croatian person to be included in English Wikipedia, they only need a trivial story done by a third rate rag in their country and the decision is to keep the article, but a person in Toronto, where the metropolitan area is the same population as the country of Croatia, an article in English Wikipedia would likely face deletion because there was a lack of national coverage.  So the result is that the English Wikipedia ends up with a bunch of foreign language stories about foreigners that nobody gives a shit about in places that English speakers couldn't care less about, but what actually affects the lives of English speaking readers of Wikipedia is excluded from en.WP; but interestingly, assuming that the policies of foreign wikis are as fucked up as they are here, that story would appear in say the Chinese, German, or Czech Wikipedia, just not in the English one where anyone might possibly care about it.  And so WP ends up being a collection of trivial foreign shit, which nobody gives a damn about, spelled in foreign languages.  And since the nominator of this group of 10 articles decided to nominate them as a group, it's up to them to prove that all of the 10 should be moved, if you know that one of them shouldn't be moved (considering that we aren't agruing individual articles but rather a move of a collection of articles) then obviously this multi-move shouldn't take place.  It's obviously impossible for anyone to disprove that which isn't ever claimed but is just implied without any reference to any sort of facts, like RS.  Which is probably why Wikipedia policies are what they are. — Who R you? Talk 01:33, 15 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:WikiProject English/WPPolicy

This discussion is out of process. To nominate these pages for deletion follow the instructions here. Hut 8.5 22:42, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]